Really very early and STILL can't sleep, so I think I'm picking up on little side issues while y'all work at clarifying the subject at hand.

Stuff I noticed that might be helpful as y'all continue:

Jargon clarification.

* CTR?! Click Thru Rates?! I'm not sure.

* SERP = Search Engine Results Page(s).

* ROI = Return on Investment.

*TBPR - toolbar Page Rank

* PR = Page Rank (part of Google's argorithm)


Different degrees of this particular forum's knowledge:

* Charles?! (WaveShoppe) I don't even always remember everyone's real name, so might be helpful to try to use screen names with real names, or just stick with screen names.

* Sometimes we Noobs think we know what we're talking about, but aren't sure, so we write down what we think we know to get reactions from others. I believe that is how this post started.  How about trying to assume the best of each person until there is enough info to judge properly? It's helpful for the Oolds (opposite of Noobs) to know what's happening, and helpful for the Noobs to be patient enough to keep trying to clarify, when asked to do so. We clarify, they clarify, and viola! we end up with a nice full thread like this!

Now, my questions:
Gypsy said:

There are no SEO standards.... actually it's quite a hot spot in the community....  ;0)

Huh? OK, maybe standard wasn't Google's intent, but practically speaking, aren't they the standard anyway?!

Ok, as Charles eluded to.... the Google ToolBar PageRank is not a metric professional SEOs take for more than a passing fancy....

This time, naive American question - does metric mean "measurement?"

In some cases it makes sense to also target vertical search engines as part of a program.

What's a vertical search engine?

grish wrote:

This is not 100% true. If you want to be first for keyword with small competition (about 500 000 pages in Google), than high PR can help you to beat your opponents. But if you have serious competition (few million pages or more), then of course links are much more important than PR.

500,000 is small competition?! Not if you're on page 499,999! No competition then -- you're sunk!!! For my broadest term, Google gives a mere 8,860,000 results (too lazy to figure out how many pages that is), but the first page screams "add words to your search inquiry to narrow the field!" 12 sites listed, and 5 entirely different subjects. Competitive for me has to go with long-tail phrase. There is absolutely no reason why my "competition" should include a rock band, directory, Wiki entry, and sellers, when my sites have nothing to do with any of the above. If I want to be first for my phrase, "all I need" is to include similar sites, and develop a niche community, which, of course, includes good content and linking, but let Google worry about my PR. Truth be known, the more our little community gets developed the less we need to rely on Google. Not saying we'll not need Google some day, just saying if someone can find one of our sites, they'll find the rest of those sites on it. (I know, conventional wisdom says to go for one-way back links, but our niche isn't conventional.)

Ryan said:

Think of Page Rank literally, every backlink (relevant) to your page is a vote for your page, thus improving your pages rank. The better (higher ranked) the page voting for your page is, the more respect your page gets... therefor 1000 links from porn sites to your travel site would probably have less value than a PR1 guesthouse site linking to you.

Does that kinda clear it up?

And then there is recips verse one-way backlinks! (just felt like clouding up your clear up! )

Bill said:

(As I am sure most of you are aware, the Google Toolbar PageRank was updated just a few weeks ago.)

and

We have always known that Google's Link: tool produces far fewer results than Yahoo's Link: tool.

Who's "you?" Who's "we?"

I'm guessing "most of you" isn't really most of us! I know it isn't me, and I certainly know I'm not in the group of "we" either. LOL

You have officially hit the same level as Gypsy - I can understand what you're saying, but it takes a whole lot of thinking! I think you've definitely proved your original point, although it was proved in that article, too. Bummer, you had to repeat, when Nic was kind enough to leave a link to your article.

One thing I fear has happened somewhere along the line reading this thread - TBPR may well mean nothing (unless you have a high TBPR, which is fun for the ego), and linking is obviously not everything to raise up in the SERPs, but it is still mighty important -- ummmm, right?!

atwhatcost wrote:

Gypsy said:

There are no SEO standards.... actually it's quite a hot spot in the community....  ;0)

Huh? OK, maybe standard wasn't Google's intent, but practically speaking, aren't they the standard anyway?!
:

Google is the standard for those who want lots of traffic from Google. But, Google actually hides their algorithm from direct snooping.

We SEO folks are always guessing as to the solutions, but  thankfully, many of us  SEO practicioners actually test our theories against Google's search results.

As a Noob, you should know that all SEO people are theorizing solutions to the google ranking puzzle. We throw stuff against the Google wall to see what sticks. And then we try to understand how we can help our customers improve their Google rankings, using what we have learned.

Gypsy's learning is different than my learning, so he will help his customers in one way, and while we might share some similar tactics and strategies, we will never do things precisely the same.

He knows what sticks to the wall when he plays; and I know what sticks to the wall when I play.

So long as both he and I test our methodologies often, then both of us will be able to help people with their Google rankings.

The last time I offered SEO Services directly, my methodologies helped 70% of my clients climb in the search results, often to page one. So,  I went back to the "testing wall" to figure out why it worked for 70% of my clients and not for 30% of my clients. I am reasonably sure that my tests have uncovered the reasons for my previous failures and a solution that will help more of my customers find search engine ranking success.

I have tested my new methods, which are a refinement of my previous techniques, and I have seen good success.  Now I am ready to start taking SEO clients again. I can only test my stuff so far against my own stuff, but the real test will come when I am serving clients in many industries.

atwhatcost wrote:

Ok, as Charles eluded to.... the Google ToolBar PageRank is not a metric professional SEOs take for more than a passing fancy....

This time, naive American question - does metric mean "measurement?"

In some cases it makes sense to also target vertical search engines as part of a program.

What's a vertical search engine?

Metric is a standardized measurement.

Vertical search is a search within a topic, category or industry.

My understanding is that AltaVista is a vertical search engine, only serving offline businesses.

Other vertical search engines might only serve "health and medicine" or another topic. First.gov is a vertical search engine for government websites.

atwhatcost wrote:

Bill said:

(As I am sure most of you are aware, the Google Toolbar PageRank was updated just a few weeks ago.)

and

We have always known that Google's Link: tool produces far fewer results than Yahoo's Link: tool.

Who's "you?" Who's "we?"

I'm guessing "most of you" isn't really most of us! I know it isn't me, and I certainly know I'm not in the group of "we" either. LOL

You have officially hit the same level as Gypsy - I can understand what you're saying, but it takes a whole lot of thinking! I think you've definitely proved your original point, although it was proved in that article, too. Bummer, you had to repeat, when Nic was kind enough to leave a link to your article.

One thing I fear has happened somewhere along the line reading this thread - TBPR may well mean nothing (unless you have a high TBPR, which is fun for the ego), and linking is obviously not everything to raise up in the SERPs, but it is still mighty important -- ummmm, right?!

"Most of you" was a fallacied assumption that most people reading my comments were SEO people. Sorry.

"We" was also a false assumption on the same premise.

My wife tells me that I talk way too much. She stopped looking over my shoulder when I work, because she thinks I should answer all things in a paragraph or two. But I frequently feel as if a one- or two-paragraph answer will only answer a question for those who actually know what I am talking about. I tend to write long in an attempt to answer questions that even the Noob's can use as a learning tool... hopefully.

Beyond the ego boost factor, I consider the TBPR to be only useful to tell you where something may have been three monhs or six months ago, before the last Toolbar Update. Gray bar tells me it is a new page. Giant  PageRank tells me that the page has been there forever offering good info. Everything in the middle tells me absolutely nothing.

Yes, linking is not the be-all-end-all of  getting good rankings in Google, but it is probably the "single" most important element in the Google ranking equation.

Bill