Laurie, don't feel bad. My comments were more pointed at the past 3 or 4 posts.

The "Build your website in 30 minutes and have it viewed by millions" line to me is  generated to those that believe the line "You too can get rich overnight, just buy my book and I'll tell you how I done it".

Most people are impatient and they do not want to put in the work/time it takes to have a successful website. Until you start getting into submitting your website to se's and directories the information that a person really needs is generally not readily found or seen. All they get is the hogwash information that is given  for those that don't know anything. ("Let us submit your site to tens of thousands of se's and directories", "Drive high volumes of traffic to your website, all for only $xx.95 a month") They read all this and think it must be so, just look at all these testimonials about his company.

Once they start getting into the reality of what it takes to have a successful website many get discouraged and give up.
IMO two main/general reasons;
1. The time investment gets overwhelming because of their impatience.
2. Financially, because they didn't get results they understood could be gained overnight.
(I'm not going to spend another dime until I start getting results.)

To add to this, A problem faced with newbies, A short-no-detailed story of personal experience. I found when getting involved with link exchanging that there are a lot of low-life webmasters that will take advantage of a newby and a new website. The message sent "You bet we will exchange links with you" and once you have their link posted they will remove, use redirects, js, nofollow etc. whatever they can to get the value of a one way link. I don't recall the actual numbers, but I had exchanged links with 100 + / - related websites in the early phase as a newby. As my experience grew I went back and started checking all these sites. I found about 90% of them had been screwing me out of an agreed exchange of links while saying how exchanging links with them will benefit both sites.

I know a while back I had either read on a website or in an e-mail that in order to get more traffic to your website you need to join and post your website in forums.
Hence the problems we face here and other forums face as well with the take and run type of posters.

To sum my post up, the biggest problem with most newbies is not so much the inexperience of how to build a website, but the inexperience of what it takes to build a successful website.

Would be nice if more people would take the time to do more research into and get some knowledge related to the work/time involved in creating and maintaining a successful website. If this were to happen I am sure there would be more work with less headaches for people like Dave(thegypsy) and web designers like seven.
For those that learn this and still decide to go it on their own like several of us here, only one thing can happen. You build a successful website.

/* sheesh this has got to be a record length post for me */

Ah, you're a real nice fella, CE.

Thanks,
Laurie.

Sorry that you got hurt Laurie.
Please just shake it off for now.
I come to this forum (not as much as I should) to learn.  Perhaps if I hadn't learned so much already I would not be frustrated with  a sitebuilding program. 
I create and help create websites for people and want them to look good and at the same time be done right. Every time that I do create one I do warn the people that in order for them to make a go they have to put some effort and patience into it.   They still have to advertise, or spread the word somehow; they still have to be willing to wait months, sometimes years for the business to flourish.  I do submit the sites to search engines (free ones) manually.  If some one wants to advertise on google that is their reponsibility.  I don't want to deal with that particular agency.
I personally have not been pushing my business sites and working on them as I should so I do understand why I am not a millionaire or even a third of a miliionaire.  Call me crazy but I would rather see some of my clients (quite a few are none pay) make the advances.  I am all for having someone do there own site any way they wish or can and if it works great.
I learned the hard way about those linking sites and give me your money and I'll make you rich sites and discourage everyone that I can from using them. 

My point is that I am here to learn as many are, but you have to remember an old saying,  You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink it, and that is the problem with many people.
You all have a great New Year.

laurie_m wrote:

I really feel awful here. Some people have quite misunderstood the post and it has gained an unpleasant feel, some good people feeling quite hurt.

Please let me say "Go back and read the original post."

I feel very hurt that such a well intentioned gesture should become yet another contentious series of posts. I really don't want to be involved in that sort of thing.

Regards,
Laurie.

Laurie_m, posts have a natural tendency to evolve, like any good conversation does. Why you  would get "an unpleasant feel" somehow goes right over my head. Take solace in the fact that you have started a good post which interested enough good people who want to make some good, helpful comments on it.

One thing about coming here... There's (almost) never a dull moment.

Laurie,
I am/was tired (family holiday gathering yesterday, so extra exhausted and sore today.) Wasn't angry at all. Didn't mean to hurt your feelings, sorry. (You're one of a couple of handfuls of folks -- if folks fit into hands -- that have been incredibly helpful to me, and many others. You've been life-changing helpful to me, so really, really, didn't want to hurt your feelings.)

I did read your first post, and do know that the purpose is to figure out what to do with the poor folks fooled by flashing ads (or any false ads) that send them to pages and pages of lies. Just trying to explain, in my usual book style post (), that being fooled 'cuz of naivety isn't the same as being foolish, even though we often do foolish things. (Also, that sitebuilder doesn't always mean we refuse to learn.)

On the other hand, I kinda enjoyed reading how my tangent turned the topic (for a moment, hopefully), since I discovered some of the folks on here that I assumed were never fooled, were, also. (coughCE. )

I do agree that it would be wise to figure out, who really wants reviews for their sites verses those who were just adding a one-way link verses one other group not discussed yet -- those, who want everyone to just say how wonderful their sites are. It would be wise, but...ummm, I've no idea how to be THAT wise!

I've learned this much so far -- before reviewing, click on their names and check out their other posts. Those posts do give small clues as to who they are and what they want (really want, not pretend to want.) Of course, reviewing the site takes quite a bit of time without adding that much more time.

Is there some kind of way that a poll can automatically be produced for the review folder's "new topic?" Maybe ask which kind of review you want: moderate grammatical or spelling errors, SEO, coding booboos, or complete overhaul? Do you want explanations of the more experienced approach or quick results? (Anyone, who wants quick results can be ignored, or be given a reality check, if you're feeling sympathic or educational.) Maybe "just" a poll covering exactly what the person presenting the request for review that can give the folks willing to review a clearer picture of what the request is really for. (Bad sentence, but hopefully relatively clear.)

Personally, gotta tell ya, I have mixed emotions about reviewing -- particularly after my last review was pretty much ignored, and I only gave advice on parts I do know well. I really wasn't angry at Gypsy, because I have also experienced a high number of folks, who didn't really want what they asked, and, sometimes, I do get the urge to shake them, in hopes of waking them up. (Oh, com'on! Coming from ME?! That's funny. )

atwhatcost wrote:

Is there some kind of way that a poll can automatically be produced for the review folder's "new topic?" Maybe ask which kind of review you want: moderate grammatical or spelling errors, SEO, coding booboos, or complete overhaul? Do you want explanations of the more experienced approach or quick results? (Anyone, who wants quick results can be ignored, or be given a reality check, if you're feeling sympathic or educational.) Maybe "just" a poll covering exactly what the person presenting the request for review that can give the folks willing to review a clearer picture of what the request is really for. (Bad sentence, but hopefully relatively clear.)

Personally, gotta tell ya, I have mixed emotions about reviewing -- particularly after my last review was pretty much ignored, and I only gave advice on parts I do know well. I really wasn't angry at Gypsy, because I have also experienced a high number of folks, who didn't really want what they asked, and, sometimes, I do get the urge to shake them, in hopes of waking them up. (Oh, com'on! Coming from ME?! That's funny. )

You have some good ideas here, atwhatcost. How about making the review folder sig link FREE? Newbies to the forum should not be allowed to post signatures until at least X amount of useful posts (other than review requests) have been logged.

I can imagine that would clean up a whole bunch of useless posts and, hopefully, not get many of them started in the first place.

As for instant site builders... Though I said I would not use them, I do think that they can be helpful in getting newbies started in web design. One has the get their feet wet somewhere, right?  As for the cost... No education is free. I, as well as most of us, have spent truckloads of money on software and resources to get where we are. Heck, I am still spending money on it to get even further educated and ahead. So I wouldn't worry about these site builders and what they cost. Live and learn, as we did, right? lol.

I read with interest  the thoughts others have.
From my own point of view when i started my web site i knew absolutely nothing about   web site building.
After i found freewebs  and played with that for awhile  i thought id make a start. The tools are pretty good for amatuers and   they did offer hosting at reasonable price.   
I struggled along reading and learning things as i needed to.  html codes,  try finding a simple how to use  instruction  page for that lol. Plenty of info around if you already have the basics down pat. Took me ages to get things to work on my web site , all trial and error.  Once something worked it was like ok so thats how it is..
Once i got to the stage that i thought i had done   enough to make it all presentable  i signed up  to have it hosted .. .
Then i found this site  when i was searching for an answer to something , Cant ask  a question if you dont know what to ask,  signed up and asked for a review.
  Getting someone to show ..tell me with an impartial point of view  things id  done wrong left off  etc was excellent because id only had friends reletives  tell me id done a good job lol .  Bare in mind i didnt understand how to do half of what i was told .
I kept coming back and looking here  for information  even tho i wasnt posting , untill i thought id  done what i could to improve things from my first review. Then i asked for a second review. lol and  now ive got another 6mths work .
The thing is  i appreciate the advice ive gotten from every one. Its taken me time to do the improvements  and i wouldnt have even known my site needed these things done if you guys  hadnt taken the time to post. . So  my point is that ten people might come up never to be seen again but there will be those that appreciate  the time you give them.
Another thing  some people will look at the information and find it all too hard lol.    I look at the information and go find out how .
So  dont stop doing what you do and remember there are a lot of people who really do appreciate .
Regards Jan.

You have some good ideas here, atwhatcost. How about making the review folder sig link FREE? Newbies to the forum should not be allowed to post signatures until at least X amount of useful posts (other than review requests) have been logged.

Puma,
Good idea! Beats poll idea, knowing how little a person can know (really, really KNOWING ) about how to answer such a post.

As for cost, since I'm not creating my sites to give me a comfie income (yet), I'm going to assume cost also includes time, since I've spent plenty of time.

I struggled along reading and learning things as i needed to.  html codes,  try finding a simple how to use  instruction  page for that lol. Plenty of info around if you already have the basics down pat.

(Person who created such a site...psssssst, good time to launch it. )

Trp,
I'll tell you my secret, if you tell me one of yours?! Nah, I'll tell anyway, because it might help you still, or might help others. I'm learning (still can't get all the code memorized, so keep going back to the tutorials) html through two ways -- someone on this forum did create such a site, and I'm a happy guinea pig, having learned so much from that person/site, but, before that, when I searched for tutorials, I added two words you might have not considered in the search "for children." What I cannot understand when written for adults by an adult, I can understand when it is written for children! (My secret for learning how to garden, too. ) Children grasp on to things easily (brain wiring that fades quickly after 20), and good children's writers don't talk down to kids, but use simple language. Me? NEED simple language for anything I'm just starting to learn. (And, I've been "starting to learn" gardening for over ten years now. )

(hope you don't mind, Laurie, but you got two "still learning the basics" folks on this thread now, so I'm taking advantage of the possiblity of learning, when I find someone, who probably understands what I'm talking about. )

Oh, trp, and that secret I'm hoping you can tell me?! I have a host and an URL, but cannot figure out how the heck to get the stuff from my computer up to that site. I know squat about FTP -- something I've known for over a decade -- but now! NOW they've made the load up page (or whatever that scary thing is called) fill two columns of links, under 6ish headings, including e-mail accounts, and an assortment of stuff I'm simply not sure what the heck it all means! Like you said, "hard to ask the question, if you don't know what the question is." Any idea where to go to get educated on how to load up a page with paid hosting? A tutorial on what each of those links mean, do and how would be ideal, but, not knowing what that page is called, I haven't figured out what to put in a search to find a tutorial on it.