Site Reference Forums

Well, thanks for the happy new year wishes, Gypsy.

I appreciate your good wishes and reciprocate.

Happy new year to ya!

Regards,
Laurie.

Similar story...I had a client call me up nervously this morning.  The last web professional she hired seemed with it and smart but he was actually just a front and was sub hiring all the work out of India.  All her specs were ignored.  They made some really stupid CSS mistakes, even on the phone I knew exactly what those newbies had done.  She just wanted link colors changed and they couldn't even manage that with the CSS. 

Even though she had worked with them for weeks they had never explained to her the CSS sheets aren't web pages.  I sent her a very long e-mail full of questions, requested a lot of specific specifications.  She was shocked when I bid the job at a reasonable price - yup - making a style sheet isn't actually as much of a total ordeal -- IF you actually know what you're doing.

I get contacted too often with stories like this, or  "why are you so expensive? This program is only $30 and does everything for me!" 

Sometimes people really get the impression that making money from the web is a 'build it and sit back and watch the money roll in.'  I wish!

OK, thanks to ya all.

I have a plan!

Watch that space and learn, or at least be entertained.

Thanks,
Laurie.

but I think some of the best reviewers are the people that know absolutely nothing about SEO or building websites.

which s why EVERYONES review is valid - damn - just used that word!

I'm guessing that's an unchangeable feature of his site builder. He could do a lot better in the SERPs with proper titles and descriptions. But is he aware that he needs a review of his onsite SEO? And could he do anything about it if he was told?

Unfortunately, in my experience, 75% or more will not be willing ti implement the changes. It is almost like they are taking it personally in that THEY chose that route and are gonna stick by it. WTF does Dave know? Probably just trying to get me to use his web development firm... he he...

Point being, that 'site-builder' folks chose that route because they are unwilling to commit the resources to do it properly. They won't learn nor pay for 'doing it right' so much of the advice is wizzing into the wind.

And I feel a sense of guilt, being part of a forum where people come along, taking up what they understand to be our offer, and really go away empty handed, largely through their own folly, but also through out failure to say it how it is.

Well, it doesn't say 'Our Proffessional Staff' - so let's hope they understand that it is FREE advice and should be treated as such. I don't really think that charging for them (and paying ya'll a few $$) would go over that well because many folks are simply looking for FREE advice.... (why are there no mentors though?) -- he he

My 2c

and Happy New Year's once more (official this time)

I agree with you're saying; but what about the people that start off that way for the reason that they want to know if this is what they really want to do and if they see that they like it, they persevere with it and they do put effort into it. So sometimes I think it's o.k. as long as they end up putting their own effort in.

regards,
Snezana
<snip>url edited out by Moderator</snip>

laurie_m wrote:

Well, G'day.

I was, just now, having a look at a few things of interest to me on the web. I spied this large flashing ad on the left of a page, (could hardly miss it), telling me I could have a personal or business website, no hassles, no experience necessary. So I clicked on it, out of curiosity, mind you, not because I wanted what was on offer.

It definitely was not a have. I'm sure the people deliver what they promise.

Trouble is, what they promise is:

Web Identity's Website Builder
Create your very own business or personal website using our easy-to-use, point-and-click Website Builder - no experience necessary! Build any kind of site you wish with our simple-to-use, step-by-step website building tool. Choose from over 300 customizable designs and templates and simply insert your own text and images. It's that easy! This web site building tool is ideal for the new user.

ORDER NOW

Click here for a Website Builder screenshot
Click here for a Website Builder screenshot

HOW IT WORKS
It's easy to build a site with Website Builder. The administration area of your Builder allows you to easily manage and create multiple web sites in 3 easy steps!
Step 1: You must choose a web site template for your site. This will help you get started with sample content and ideas on what to say.
Step 2: Pick one of the web site designs that you can customize to match your personal style.
Step 3: Now you can edit text, add images (upload your own or pick from the built-in image gallery), and add pages to your site.
Click Publish and you're done!
Within minutes you will have your own personal site published and online!

Click here for a Website Builder demo
Click here for a Website Builder demo

FEATURES
300+ Designs and Templates
Online photo editor & picture gallery
No HTML of other coding required
Site Add-Ons
Website statistics
Free Domain Name & Email
25 MB Disk Storage
256 Kb/s Bandwidth

Click Here to view an example of a Personal Site
Click Here to view an example of a Business Site

So someone with a reasonable level of computer literacy and a bit of experience browsing the web spends their couple of hundred bucks for the package which might involve a two year contract. That's OK.

They spend between half an hour and a week creating their "no experience necessary website", then sit back in their swivel chair and admire their handiwork.

"Ah, great website!" they say, "Wish I'd known it was so easy before; I'd have made a website ages ago!"

So, after some time has elapsed they lob at this or some other webmaster forum, wanting a site review and advice on how to make the site better and get traffic.

Trouble is, in most cases they can't follow up on the advice given for one or both of the following reasons:

1)  The "no experience necessary" site builder won't let them.

2)  Their "no experience" won't let them.

Sadly, most of these people very quickly become "take and run" new members, despite their original good intentions.

But I think that there is a personality type that falls prey to the promises of effortless success.

The accompanying mindset is typified by the new member who makes the obligatory three site reviews and their fouth, and often last post, is their own site review request.

If only these people participated to the extent of hanging around the forum for a few weeks with the intention of studying and learning, they'd soon learn that site reviews from other "minimum effort" newbys are pretty much worthless. They'd also see that other "minimum effort" people before them are gone, never to be seen again, after four or five posts, with nothing gained.

Now, I doubt that there's much can be done to help these people if my assumption is correct that the difficulty is an integral part of their personality. But here are some sugestions:

1)  Just let the newby reviews of newby sites continue. Doesn't help, doesn't hurt but keeps the spam down.

2)  Before any of the regular, (read competent), members give a review, the site owner should either volunteer the following information or provide it upon request:
*  Programme used to build the site.
*  Programme's ability to make changes.
*  Person's ability to make changes.
*  Intentions for the site.
*  Willingness to study SEO, html, css, file size, layout, colour.

Of course, you can't force people to provide the above information; not in Australia, anyway, and I suspect it's the same everywhere. But you can cut your personal losses by declining to fall in with the wants of "minimum effort" people.

And you never know, some may be helped by being obliged to commit to a bit of effort.

I hope you'll understand that the last bit, in bold, is what this whole post is about.

Regards,
Laurie.

Ahhh, CRAP! Was reading what y'all think, but planned to stay out of it for obvious reasons. Then, well, Dave made it through a couple of responses before saying the thing that made the hairs at the back of my neck rise AND gave me a nice "out in the cold" redness to my cheeks.

I just can't help myself (or I can't sleep, and don't feel like doing what needs to be done?!)

Point being, that 'site-builder' folks chose that route because they are unwilling to commit the resources to do it properly. They won't learn nor pay for 'doing it right' so much of the advice is wizzing into the wind.

Not always. My one site IS "SiteBuilder." It was/is my third attempt at a site. First attempt was through FrontPage --  simple one page site telling of my company. My company did 8 different types of things -- perfect for a no nonsense, bulleted list. One line each -- no more then 6 words - no more then 2 syllables per words -- should be no problem! Ha! $#%^#$%@ FP decided to make number 6 two lines with a couple of <B>'s in between, except the code carried no <B>'s in between. And, just because that wasn't hard enough already, I was FTPing it onto AOL 2.X! (Ain't no one here should be surprised I'm THAT old now. LOL)

How hard could learning html be?!

I tried learning it, but I also have a degree in education, so do know the learning curve after age 21 is as hard to work at as climbing a snowtopped mountain -- possible, but a lot of hard work. Goes down hill from there, too. I didn't know that my health problems were creeping up on me, and dealing with them so much, plus the kinds of problems they are, made learning html feel like learning Chinese.

Point being, that 'site-builder' folks chose that route because we're old (or young) and naive, and we have something important enough to put it up online. We won't pay for 'doing it right,' because a.) we don't know we're doing it wrong, b.) we don't have a clear goal as to why we are doing it, amd c.) we are old or young and cannot afford to pay someone to do it!!! Obviously, some of us WILL learn.

For we stubborn ones, somewhere along the line we finally make up our minds what we want to do, and what we want it to look like. Being dumb with this newfangle weapon called the web that constantly changes, it's mind-boggling all the new ways of doing sites. It's changing faster then I can keep up (and I'd be shocked to know anyone is truly keeping up constantly.)

I cannot memorize html anymore then I could memorize geometry back when I was 16! Fortunately, someone was kind enough to create a tortorial, and I can pass any test, if it's an open book test and I have the time needed. Rumor has it CSS is as easy as html. (Remember back to "learning html feels like learning Chinese.") And then there is flash, RSS, Webcasting, "StumbleUpon," "Digg this," tagging, and who the heck knows the other stuff I don't even know exists.

AND GEE WIZ, now that I can html, its as if the whole uploading crap doesn't exist, or isn't supposed to be a problem! Good Lord, have you seen the pages you're supposed to upload to? SEs have less links per page, and their links are actually understandable! (No tutors on that thing.) And then, heaven forbid I get into trusting hosts or even can keep my freaking URL at a semi-affordable price.

It would be right nice if making a freaking web site consisted of learning html! Crap! By now, I swear I'd studied html until I finally understood the stuff, IF that actually got me a nice, working, easy to use, well SEO'd, semi-profitable website magically up on the Internet, and I can easily change it around whenever I want, because that is part of my vision!

As the Advanced Noob on this board, who obviously gets a bit tired of being implied/told how stupid, uncaring, unwilling, blinded, hacked, and deaf I am, I am also the one that's stuck around a while, too. Seems like a good time to run down my list of frustrations:
1.) "Know html" is not a useful comment to someone, who has already pulled off one or more websites without knowing it. "Why?" Needs to be answered.
2.) Truthfully, I really don't care if my code looks good or not. (Thanks for saying that WS and Matte. I've always wondered why that seems so important.) If code looks like crap, has way too much stuff on it, BUT folks can navigate where they want easily, and enjoy the content and pictures + SEs can read it, I don't care if it looks like chicken scratch! It works.
3.) There are bigger problems to making your own website from scratch then learning html. (Seeing what it will really looks like and actually uploading it.)
4.) Aren't you getting to the point of figuring out who will and who won't listen yet? (I'm getting better. LOL)
5.) Do not generalize about all people.
6.) Some of us aren't "in the biz" and there is more then one biz on this board. Not all being in the same biz, don't use industry-specific words to explain something to someone. (And in reverse, not knowing industry-specific words doesn't mean we're stupid, uncaring, unwilling, etc.)
7.) (And the hardest one for me to remember) If certain kinds of people just make you want to tear them an extra hole in their body, walk away. Just walk away.

Just for the record, I'm tired -- not angry. I'm tired in two ways though -- can't sleep and being assumed I'm really not much, simply because I use Site-Builder (for free. People buy it?! Yeesh!) Not angry at you either, Dave. Just wanted you to see it from both sides -- if not more than just two sides. Well, time to get some work done.

You are right, atwhatcost. Sometimes it's just not important if we arrive at a goal from the left, right, top ot bottom. As long as we get there : ) I have one site with crappy code, it's been up for years, I never went back to adjust any code, yet it's consistently in the 1 or 2 position in the SE's, makes me money, is easy to navigate and customers like it. Am I going to mess with that baby? Let me see... should I take my precious time away from the next crappy code side to miss out on a another successful web site, just to mess with a good thing that doesn't need fixin'? Nah, probably not... Duh. lol

Still... I would never use instant site builders, because they do limit you. I much rather use my favorite (and I know I'm gonna get some flack from somebody on this) FP. I have dreamweaver and several other site creation software. Yet I ended up loving FP and using certain functions of some other ones I can't get in FP to fine tune a site to what I need.

Anyone wanting to point out the crappy code issue in FP? How do you think I got my successful site? reta

YAY!!! some sanity is emerging!!

Of course there are some essential coding aspects that just have to be right, but generally some errors and warnings are not going to make one scrap of difference.

What we should be focusing on is conversion rates - at the end of the day that is all that matters and that is what = ROI in $ terms

Not arguing with anybody here. My !@s would get kicked so fast my mommy's head would hurt.

Seeing or reading how others get there or do things is always beneficial to our own learning abilities. I agree with - It doesn't really matter how you get there, if the end result is a pleasing, easy to use and everything works properly. Then you have done good.