five figures a month using PayPal?  Um...I will have to go back and read what my comments were, but you are way beyond in volume than what I was speaking to.  If that is the case, I am not sure I would be using PayPal at all and pay the extra bank fees.  Did you ever try ZenCart?  Looking into that one myself.  Installed on your own server...PayPal integrated (and others).

Yes, I look back and I can't believe that for my volume I've been using a free shopping cart for the past 3 years.  I look around now and I see monthly fees everywhere which increase by the number of products your site has and some shopping carts actually want a percentage of your sales as well!  The thing is, PayPal's free shopping cart is not too different from most other shopping carts.  It gets the job done and is fairly simple to use for both the seller and the customer.  So I'm trying to assess the advantages and disadvantages.  How much is it worth it to pay extra for essentially the same cart? 

The main difference I found is that with PayPal you create your own website and just add PayPal's html "Add to Cart" buttons on your existing webpages.  With the other shopping cart software it seems that they form a store for you from scratch - you enter all your products into their software and choose your store template and then it spits out all your store pages for you, which is great for someone just starting up.  I haven't looked into it in detail yet, but ZenCart appears to be that way.  I've looked into X-Cart and even installed their demo.  There could be advantages in starting a store from scratch and organize all your products with one of these programs.  I'm still debating it.

One thing I've noticed with these programs (ZenCart, X-Cart, etc.) is that they "force" a customer to either log-in or register when they check-out.  I personally don't want that because I personally hate to register or sign up for websites when I only want to purchase something from them.  I consider it a risk factor for shopping cart abandonment.  With PayPal's shopping cart a customer is not forced to sign up (although that fact is not as clear to the customer as I would want it to be).  So in that aspect PayPal is simpler.  Anyway, I've been emailing X-Cart support about this and they said it's possible to configure it so that buyers are given the option to go directly to check-out (and by-pass the registration) but that would require customization on their part and could cost extra.  They are still getting back to me on this.

Hmm bank fees. There is a full spectrum of business needs and as I gave more thought to the OP, I figured that it would be beneficial to look farther down the road. If your business is growing you will inevitably have to cross this bridge. The cart fee is really small potato’s when compared to paying for the payment gateways. I am not defending Paypal but its not as bad a deal as people state. Any transaction can be disputed be it Paypal or Visa or MC. I could tell you some stories about sucky service and losing money with Visa and American Express, but I will refrain. (But call any one of them and tell them you have purchase on a stolen card, they will say SO... and tell you that you need to call the issuing bank, but they cant tell you who it actually is)

Take a look at what you are currently laying out and compair it to the providers listed on this site: http://www.merchantmole.com/

Also look at PayPals rate which is down to 1.9% , that can be a decent savings for a business with even average sales volume.

"How does PayPal compare to a merchant account?
If you're just starting out or looking for a way to increase sales, PayPal offers an easy and quick way to accept payments with no monthly or setup fees. You just pay a PayPal transaction fee on the merchandise that you sell. Transaction fees range from 1.9% to 2.9% and depend on the number of transactions you conduct each month." Get the full scoop at Yahoo

Outlier:  That is why I am watching your journey through this so closely...I am trying to make a similiar decision with my older art site, which has been working perfectly with Paypal's cart.  No problems at all and patrons seem to be happy.  In fact, while others have mentioned issues (although I do agree) with the new buttons...knock on wood, I haven't seen any ill effects.

I am precisely interested in the software for the 'organizational' aspects, as you mentioned.  I have not seen Xcart.  I will go check into that one right away.  I too, like the 'no signup required'.

Waveshoppe:  You are exactly right.  Every year come evaluation time, I end up in the same place for most of the reasons you stated.  Plus, I will go back to what I stated in the beginning...my customers seem to have a 'comfort zone'  in the word PayPal.  Even offline, it is often "Can I just PayPal you the money?."  It doesn't mean other methods aren't viable, but when you make your living off the Internet, you learn to be in tune with the insecurities of online shoppers.  Maximize on the few things that make them comfortable with online shopping.  Trust is the apple.

Bjer: I really wanted to let this thread die gracefully but if your business is growing there is always the potential for your customer base to change, sometimes almost overnight. Depending on your product and customer demographics, you could quickly find yourself not only accommodating the usual web grazers, but also big companies which usually won’t do the actual transaction online.  Some companies want you to take the order over the phone or work off of a purchase order. Just some food for thought.

i have been using paypal alonside google checkout and both have their pros and cons.
The big pro with paypal has to be ease of use and its site's user-friendly interface. I have never experienced any problems with them over the last 4 years.

To thebjer:  I thought I should just keep the forum updated since you expressed an interest in my journey.  After installing the X-cart demo and weeks of corresponding with the X-cart customer support, I finally got the following information out of them on 3 methods of PayPal check-out they utilize.  I strongly feel that these methods are the same or similar to most other shopping cart software (at least the ones you install on your own server and pay a one-time fee for).  The following is exactly what the person wrote to me.  [I've put in my own comments in brace brackets like this]

X-cart customer support quote:  "Let me explain 3 possible payment methods in X-cart, so you could make your choice:

1. PayPal Express Checkout method - your customers don't need to enter any information in X-cart, they are redirected to PayPal and use their existing PayPal account or assign for it if they don't have one. Also information from PayPal will be transferred to X-cart and profile will be created using this information. However you wrote that you don't like this method."

[I don't like this method because it "forces" customers to sign up with PayPal and again, I would want that to be the customer's choice]

2. PayPal Standard method - customers will be redirected to PayPal site and make payment there, in X-cart they will need to fill in billing and shipping information also.

[Using it this way makes customers fill in their billing/shipping information twice - once in X-cart and once in PayPal.  When they do it in X-cart, it is to sign up/register which is what I do NOT want.  The more inconvenient you make it for customers, the more chance of shopping cart abandonment.  I was actually hoping that X-cart could direct customers directly to the PayPal check-out immediately after the total amount is calculated (no signup/registration).  Then PayPal would ask for billing/shipping information and the customer ends up only doing this once.  This was my original request with the customer support.]

X-cart quote:  "If you wish, we can make custom solution when your customers won't need to fill in any information in X-cart and will checkout on PayPal. I believe this solution will be done using PayPal 'add to cart' buttons (also i reviewed your site and it seems that you are using these buttons for your site).  However i don't think this custom solution will be a good one. Let me explain why. First of all, no shipping/taxes information will be taken into account when using PayPal now buttons. When customers provide billing and shipping address in X-cart, appropriate shipping rates and taxes rates are calculated by X-cart (and it is what you need X-cart for). If you use PayPal buttons and no information is entered on your side, no shipping rates and taxes are calculated. What do you think about that?"

[In this scenario just described, there is no need for X-cart software at all!  PayPal's "add to cart" buttons are part of PayPal's free shopping cart and it calculates shipping/taxes already.  If I were to switch to X-cart, I was planning on getting rid of PayPal's "add to cart" buttons entirely and switching to X-cart's "store creation" software to re-create the entire store.  So I really don't know what kind of "customization" this person was trying to sell me.  Imagine paying for a customization that leaves you exactly where you started and doing exactly what you are doing already?]

X-cart quote:  "3. We can offer you to use PayFlow Pro payment method for example (it is managed by PayPal also), so your customers will stay on your site for the whole checkout and will provide all their information just once on your store. Shipping rates and taxes will be calculated in X-cart, payment will be processed by payment gateway anyway. In this case you also will see all customers profiles directly in admin section.

[This I was considering as a last resort.  But again, for the PayPal Pro solution it will cost $30 a month (used to be $20 and could even go higher in the future) and higher merchant transaction fees.  I'd switch to this if I have to but if I can do it with no monthly charge and the cheaper merchant transaction fees, I will hold off.  The other potential problem with this is that customers might trust not trust blindly giving their credit card/financial info to your website.  They might feel alot better if they knew PayPal was involved in the transaction, which is not as evident as with the free PayPal shopping cart.  I guess you'd have to emphasize to the customer that when they check-out, PayPal is the payment processor.  I'm not sure how significant a problem this might be though.  It could be very minor for all I know.

Anyway, no matter what shopping cart software you choose, if you are currently using PayPal's free shopping cart and PayPal's "add to cart" buttons and you wanted to switch to other shopping cart software but keep the same PayPal check-out  without customers having to fill in their information twice and registering with the shopping cart software, there will probably be some kind of customization involved.  In my case, I think I will be sticking to what I have been using, the free PayPal shopping cart - at least until I see significant sales dropping, which I haven't seen yet.  That is the problem of the free shopping cart.  You need to hold your breath for the next change.  If the next change is significant, then so might your sales.  It's great that we're doing what we're doing and discussing this, keeping an eye out for alternative methods just in case.]

We use paypal in addition to credit card sales.  With the number of sales we get through paypal I'm sure we were losing some from people who either don't have credit cards or don't like using them online.

We've never had a problem with them either.

P

Not that its a bad thing, but I wanted to mention that PayPal Payments Pro has a 10,000.00 per transaction cap.

Here is a complete list of possible error messages that can occur when making a PayPal API call https://www.paypal.com/IntegrationCente … rrors.html I found it while tracking down a 10553 error

Thank you so much for taking the time to report on your findings outlier!  It appears I will be tabling any changes for yet another year - largely based on your report.  I don't see any reason to move up in financial expense at the expense and risk of my customer's convenience and trust.  Just about every thought you had during your 'customer support' experience crossed my mind as I read your post.
Much appreciated,
Bj.

Now that this thread is out in the open again... i need to bang off a quick query if its alright. I understand that you can get easily stuffed around by paypal... as a merchant  but what i would like to know, is there risk involved in purchasing through paypal. I would like to buy stuff from chinavasion.com and will probably end up paying with credit card through paypal... is that a risky choice for me as a customer?

Ryan_steyn wrote:

Now that this thread is out in the open again... i need to bang off a quick query if its alright. I understand that you can get easily stuffed around by paypal... as a merchant  but what i would like to know, is there risk involved in purchasing through paypal. I would like to buy stuff from chinavasion.com and will probably end up paying with credit card through paypal... is that a risky choice for me as a customer?

When your order via PayPal, the merchant never sees your credit card information. This, to me, seems like a very good thing. The fewer people have access to that information the better. Most data breaches happen on the merchant end because they may be lax about securing this sensitive data.

PayPal seems as secure as it can get. I have personally used PayPal as a merchant and as a customer for years and never encountered a problem. My above comments also apply to 2CheckOut.

Hey Ryan...I've been using PayPal for years and do many, many transactions with it ranging from a few bucks to a few thousand- never once had a security issue with PayPal- in fact the opposite- i have been screwed a few times buying stuff online using PayPal (from eBay- altough the good transaction far outweigh the bad and i love eBay to this day) and PayPal has always refunded my money out of their own pockets even though it wasn't their fault which i think is pretty damn cool. On the merchant side their fees a re a bit much for my liking but buying stuff with pp has been a great experience. Whenever i have a choice i use that over my credit cards

Nic wrote:

On the merchant side their fees a re a bit much for my liking but buying stuff with pp has been a great experience.

You are right, Nic, PayPal is a bit on the higher cost side for merchants, but I find it worth the money for the security and peace of mind. Somebody is going to get a share out of our profits for processing our transactions. I much rather have someone who I KNOW does it securely and pay a bit extra. Wouldn't you?

However, the cost for their Virtual Terminal is definitely too high, in my humble opinion. Yet, I have it for those customers who need to order in person because they, for some reason or another, don't have access to the web.

That said, I try to stir people to order from the site. Try to educate them about how much more dangerous it is to order from a voice on the phone, they don't know from Adam. How does anyone know who is really behind a web site? The famous Nigerian scammer?  And because.... it's unbelievable how many people still think they are safer ordering via phone than they are ordering via a secure web site transaction.

This has the effect that, 9 times out of 10, our customers end up ordering directly from the site, via PayPal or 2CO.
Which leaves me ending up paying 30 Bucks a month to educate our customers on the saftey of online shopping, lol.
It's worth it

I have been using paypal for three months now... I can just say, it is simple and universally accepted so it works fine.

"Bring out yer dead!"

*dontk*

"Bring out yer dead!"


Yeah.... referring to Quest for the Holy Grail, in regards to how old this thread is.....

Great, thanks guys, i honestly dont know how else i would have gone about paying a company in china Faith is now restored and i reckon this thread may need to be admin pushed off the list before mr stitch has a.... well.... stitch

MrStitch wrote:

"Bring out yer dead!"

*dontk*

"Bring out yer dead!"


Yeah.... referring to Quest for the Holy Grail, in regards to how old this thread is.....

This would probably be a discussion about google-checkout these days -rofl-