DMX wrote:

MrStitch wrote:

Alas... I can't get hammered.

Maybe get nailed. No headaches. No vacation time...Cheery dispositon...

Yeah right.... did I mention the fact that I'm married?

DMX wrote:

MrStitch wrote:

Alas... I can't get hammered.

Maybe get nailed. No headaches. No vacation time...

It can still work..

I use a Mac for work...If you have the Mighty Mouse, you CAN right click.

Oh, yeah, by the way...

"Guess who's back. Back again."

You all love me

oh come on stitch.... you can go to work with a hangover... and get nailed Get yer wife hammered to, seal the deal... he he he.

THats actually a huge point for me to, the fact that i can pimp my pc that extra bit whenever i feel like treating myself is awesome. Same old same old gets boring to quickly. Kinda gives me stuff to aspire to... one day when im earning that much i can buy those things and create the ultimate beast of a pc... maybe take over nasa with it can you take over nasa with a mac?

Mark? your back? when were you gone? j/k

welcome back mate

Here's my view on the whole Mac vs PC debate.  This is based on many years as a PC user and 18 months as a Mac user.

I have owned 8 PCs (6 desktop and 2 laptop) of my own and used countless PCs (desktop and laptop) at work.
Windows has become a security nightmare thanks to virus, spyware and trojan writers and MS is struggling to cope.
The Blue Screen of Death is a reality that plagues so many users that it's well known by us all.
After having the last 2 PCs I owned dying on me as a combination of hardware and software problems that neither MS nor any PC technician could resolve without effectively paying enough to replace the whole system - I was recommended Macs by a friend.

At first I was very skeptical.  I did a thorough investigation before making a purchase.  Now I own 2... because I have 3 kids and so I have one (MacBook Pro Intel Duo Core 2, Mac OS X), and my eldest now has one (iBook G4, Mac OS X).  My other 2 kids both have windows laptops.

I can run everything I used to run and more.  It runs better on a Mac, more reliably and simply better to use than any PC I have had or do have.

I am not an avid gamer, but I recognise there are less games available for the Mac than PC.  That's not an issue for me.

If I want to run a PC application I can't get on a Mac I can run Windows in a window, or dual-boot and run it there.  But for me that's not a requirement as I still have 2 Windows machines in the house I can draw on for the few publications I have in MS Publisher that I might want to modify and re-print for church every-so-often.

My use of my machines would be described as a high-end user... as I do web development for my own websites using Dreamweaver and Flash; run an online business through them, handling email, skype and ecommerce; and produce all my and my church's publications and then all the usual office functions too.  And that all works fine on my Mac.

There are compatibility issues with Safari and some sites - and as mentioned before that's because of MS-specific code used in sites, especially those who copy code from elsewhere and don't realise it's MS-specific.  For those I find Firefox handles it just fine.  I have not found any ecommerce or form based site Firefox can't handle.  So I use that for all online purchases.

I am not brainwashed by the prices I have paid for the machines and I'll explain why.  The total cost of ownership is already lower for me... as neither of the Mac machines has crashed even once.  So my productivity is higher, I've got more done, spent nothing on repairs, and I haven't had to apply hundreds of virus and security updates every week.

The battery life is better than any PC laptop I've owned... including some very reliable Toshibas and IBM Thinkpads.  I get just over 5 hours battery for normal Word Processing & surfing type use on the iBook.  Around 3.5 hours on the MacBook Pro.  That's a disappointment compared with the iBook battery life I got used to... but the performance and capability is blistering.

When I compare that with the 2 PCs I last had which died - I'm already saving money.

Then I add to that the built-in software for producing movies which is functionally rich, the built-in camera for video conferencing, the built-in video conferencing software, the built-in music production software.  And they all work seamlessly together.

To answer an earlier point, I've not had Safari crash either.  I have had some apps crash - Excel, Word, Powerpoint, Firefox but I can probably count those crashes on 2 hands. 

I find Apple's presentation software - Keynote - to be better than Powerpoint, and it can read Powerpoint files and export into any format needed - including Powerpoint... so I don't have a compatibility issue with friends with Windows machines.  I'm still a heavy Powerpoint user for my day job, so I can make a solid comparison.  Powerpoint has more animation effects.  Keynote is more compatible with other products, more reliable (has never crashed for me) and has more functionality.

Apple's own Word Processing/DTP product - Pages - isn't as good as MS Word.  And they don't have a competitor for Excel.  Whilst I have MS Office I tend now to use the Open Source product - NeoOffice - which is the Mac OS X instance of OpenOffice.  NeoOffice is more stable and less resource intensive than MS Office on a Mac.  And it's free!  I've not tried OpenOffice on Windows so can't provide a comparison.

Other things I like about Mac OS X:
1. Spotlight built-in search facility that finds anything I need in any document type, whether in the document name, title or content in seconds or less.  It's way better than anything Google Desktop (or similar) can offer on Windows.  Vista has something very similar so if you upgrade you'll be able to get that capability.
2. Dashboard and Widgets.  Small programs that simply go to sleep in the background until you need them.  You can download (for free) widgets for seemingly any function.  Vista now has a similar function called Sidebar and Gadgets.
3. Built-in integrated Photo, Music, Recording Studio and Film Production software.  Mac OS X comes with the following software buit in - iTunes (it's free download for Windows too), iPhoto for photo organisation and basic manipulation, PhotoBooth (for fun photos through the built-in camera), GarageBand audio recording software and iMovie HD for high definition film recording.  With more people using their computer for photos, home movies etc. these are a real benefit compared with having to buy similar products at an extra cost on Windows.
4. The cost of Apple's software.  iWork which comes with Apple's presentation software (Keynote) and Word Processor (Pages) is only £55 or $79.  A bargain compared to MS Office.  Although as I said above does not have a spreadsheet.  But it's worth it just for Keynote.

For me the nutshell of all of this is:
1. Most users want a simple, easy to use system for web browsing, email and word processing, compatible with all their friends and at the lowest price they can get, with as few security problems as possible, and as realiable as possible.

PCs and Macs can both fulfill this in different ways.  My opinion and experience is a Mac does it more reliably, with more and better functionality, with fewer (none so far for me) security issues.

The cost question is like buying a cheaper priced car.  It's cheaper to buy but not as nice to drive, costs more on repairs, it's in for fixing more often, and is worth less when you want to sell it on.  Whereas a BMW (for example) is so much better to own, reliable, enjoyable to drive and worth more to sell when used.  The total cost of ownership isn't as wide a gap as you'd think.  In the UK a car magazine recently proved it was cheaper to own a Mercedes for 2 years than a Ford, for example... and they rated the Merc better in every way.

2. High-end Gamers will always buy PCs as there are more and better games and accessories available.  That's a simple analysis.

3. Graphic designers, high-end DTP users and the like will always get the Mac as they know it's capability and that of the software in this field.

4. Security will always be an issue for Windows because it's made by MS.  They are simply targetted by virus and trojan writers.  Unfair, but a reality.  Mac is less targetted and through it's security features harder (not impossible) to target.  Even Vista's better security will end up giving you more problems because of the attacks it's going to receive and because it's starting point is a Windows engine and not Unix which Mac OS X has at it's core.

But most users aren't high-end gamers or designers.  Most users are the average low to mid user of the common applications.  And most users who can look beyond the hardware purchase price would be more likely to purchase a Mac than the other way around.

As for high-end.  I've seen reviews from independent magazines where the Mac Pro - high-end tower machine, with slots where you can add in and take out whatever extras you want - was compared with a similar Dell machine and (in the US in dollars at least) was shown to be not only a better performer, but cheaper too - by several hundred dollars.  So maybe the tide is turning there.

5. For anyone wanting to run Windows and Mac on the same network (wired or wireless) - it's not a problem.  They work together fine for file exchange, iTunes integration, printing etc.  That's how I have mine set-up and  compatibility and communication is not an issue.

Finally, I don't really mind if you use Windows or Mac.  I don't have shares in either and won't benefit.
But, as with any good product or service, I like to tell others so thay too can benefit.  That's why Mac users become so passionate about telling others - they want to let others in on the find they've made.  It's nothing to do with justifying the extra cost. (As I've outline above, I am saving on lost time, greater productivity, repair costs, security issues and built-in software)

If you prefer to stick with Windows that's fine by me.  But I would recommend you do it as an informed decision that Windows is really the best suited to your requirements, from a point of knowledge.  Pop down to your local Apple store and spend an hour playing with a machine and asking questions.  Then you can have a true comparison.  That's what I did - and I'm glad I did.

And finally finally, the best test I have of regular users are my kids and my wife.  My kids have used Windows for 6 years and found converting to using Mac very easy.  They can choose between Windows and Mac OS X and almost always choose the Mac.  The second child (who has a Windows laptop) prefers her Windows machine because it's hers.  But has already said when it dies she wants a Mac.  My wife, who had never used a computer until the last 12 months has found no trouble using either.  So as a total newbie she has easily picked up both.

But where is the sense of adventure, i understand what your saying and wont knock it But there has to be some exploration, some fight. By the sound of your post i am guessing you never really meddled with your pc's, i cant imagine what you were doing to em to get them to crash all the time even die at that.

Those are some very peculiar events in my opinion. When you buy a new gadget don't you find it the least bit exciting to put toy around with it? rip its guts and put it back together? my home pc has been running xp for two years now, i built it myself, updated it myself and still do... it crashed once... but that was my fault... sata really isnt all that hot swappable But still, i guess if you arent keen for an adventure or you don't particularly enjoy tuning your machine to reach max performance then a mac is the way forward.

Hi Ryan
I've certainly upgraded some PCs, but I'm not an over-clocker as I don't have the knowledge, or to be honest the time to build up the knowledge.  I'm too busy using the computer to produce things in the software to be pulling the hardware apart.
I certainly like to tinker with optimising performance and use of any gadget I have... but I tend to do that (personally) within the software.  And I can do that on a Mac as much as a PC for my uses.
All credit to you if you're able to (and need to and like to) do it with the hardware.

For me, it's like cars.  I prefer to spend time behind the wheel getting the most out of the driving experience, than under the bonnet (or hood) tinkering with the engine management system.  And my skill set is therefore in accordance with that.

As for what I was doing to have 2 die on me... quite simple.  I was producing websites, DTP publications, doing email and the usual PC applications.  Nothing unusual at all.
I only wish I had been doing something technically adventurous with the hardware to cause the problems, as at least then I'd be able to know the smoking gun to find the cause.

The last one simply got into rebooting itself everytime you turned it on.  I spent 2 weeks researching and trying to fix the fault.  I got it to stop the re-booting and give some hex code for the error.  Microsoft's answer was (honestly) "try swapping the memory.  If it's not that, try swapping the hard disk.  If it's not that, try swapping..." and the list went on.  i'd already swapped memory and tried another hard disk.  Any more swapping and it was cheaper to buy a new one.
And that's where the suggestion of looking at a Mac came in...

For those able to, and I have a friend who can and does, you can tinker with your Mac and go wild I understand.  It's just not something I need to do.  I enjoy the concrete reliability of a system that hasn't once crashed, locked up or anything similar, and when an app has crashed it's simply said "<app name> has ended unexpectedly.  Would you like to close it, re-open it, or report it" with no fuss.  And that's one of the most appealing this for me and Mac OS X.

If you've had a PC experience that's been off the scale of realiability too then you're in a club that no other PC user I know is... and in which case I totally understand why you prefer to stick with a PC and Windows.

lol, i definitely do understand that the software can be just as intriguing as the hardware, i am getting into the coding side of things myself. As i said earlier, different tools serve different purposes and some work better for others. Beauty really is in the eye of the beholder. I started tinkering inside pc's when i was 8 so have a fairly good knowledge of how different things affect different occurrences much like in programming where similar things can have different effects in different environments.

The problem with your pc was one of 3 things, your memory (not just replacing) could have simply run into compatibility issues with your motherboard or your cpu was was dodge... and couldn't handle the strain or your graphics card was eating to much juice from your power supply. I have seen that happen a few times. Moral being... never trust Microsoft support, it is based on looking from simplest to most complicated... never straight to the point. Many companies that sell pc's prebuilt cant be trusted (from experience) which is why i buy my bits and bobs seperately. That way its cheaper and i know ive got the right stuff. Macs don't run into issues like that i would imagine... nice, just not interesting (for me)

It really is up to the individual to decide whats better for them, i don't think a general consensus on which is better will ever be concluded which is great cause the way i figure, the better mac gets, the more competitive pc's get and vice versa... if it wasn't for that there wouldn't be any drive to make the best products and we would all be stuck with good and okay products. ATI is in constant competition with nVidia, Intel versus AMD, Windows versus mac OS... they are being constantly pushed to the limits to create the best products at affordable prices in attempts to beat the competition which makes our worlds that much better.

Imagine how sucky it would be if all those companies got along like us web designers..... wouldn't that be ugly.

In ending, good on you for finding the tool that works for you, to many people dodge technology cause they never got the chance to find a compatible match for themselves. Its never about being a sheep and following what others think is the best choice of equipment, play with both and keep the one that does what you want it to do, thats the key to technological happiness i reckon. Plus, i don't hate macs... i simply don't like em and honestly, i have just as much fun laughing at Windows as i do macs

Thanks Ryan... I totally agree on the competition side... we all benefit from the manufacturers competing.  My Intel Mac is a better performer than my (now daughter's) PowerPC and I benefit from that.  You're absolutely right.

I'm thankful though, that MS and Apple (and others) get along on some compatibility fronts... especially as I run 2 of each and need my kids' work (amongst other things) to integrate between them all.

I'm like you... although I guess with an opposite view.  I don't hate Windows, I just prefer OS X.  I use Windows around 8-9 hours a day for my day job, and have done since 1993.  I've supported it with end users, written apps for it, and got along with it quite well... it's just now I have a new friend and we get along better :o)

One final thought from me is that I have always had less problems with laptops than desktops (I'm talking Windows here).  I've always thought that it's due to the integration of the proprietry (mostly) components.  That may be one of the benefits of the Mac as it produces the hardware.  I know every manufacturer sources some of their kit from somewhere else, but I guess if you integrate them and then write the OS there's more chance it'll all work together with less trouble, than when you only write the OS and someone else supplies the H/W and then the user rips out the graphics card and pops in another one they just bought.

If I'm unlucky enough to get a fault on my remaining 2 windows laptops I know where to come in future.

One final thought from me is that I have always had less problems with laptops than desktops (I'm talking Windows here).  I've always thought that it's due to the integration of the proprietry (mostly) components.  That may be one of the benefits of the Mac as it produces the hardware.  I know every manufacturer sources some of their kit from somewhere else, but I guess if you integrate them and then write the OS there's more chance it'll all work together with less trouble, than when you only write the OS and someone else supplies the H/W and then the user rips out the graphics card and pops in another one they just bought.

And you hit that nail on the head, its only logical that that when an operating system built around a machine is more stable than a machine built around an operating system.

Especially if its not meant to change until the next full upgrade... like static web pages don't fall apart like a dynamic pages would. 

If I'm unlucky enough to get a fault on my remaining 2 windows laptops I know where to come in future.

Feel free im still learning the coding side from these forums so i may as well be useful on the hardware side

Ryan, P.S. Have you upgraded to Vista yet?  I'd be interested in your assessment.

On the subject of laughing at Windows, I like this video on the real Windows Vista: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3QdGt3ix2CQ
Bear in mind that was produced in March 2006.

And on the subject of laughing at them all this one is good: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-L-0s-7-Z0
Watch for the PC saying "what's with that glove?" LOL :o)

All the best.

LOL, I like the linux intervention

No i havent tried, i refuse, at least until more support and drivers are available for 64bit machines, i tried windows 64 bit and got really peeved that none of my drivers worked, daemon tools wouldnt run, winamp was history, codecs invalid.... as a matter of fact, everything i tried to install backfired... even my "64bit" motherboard drivers, what a croc. There is vista 32bit but i would like to see my pc run it at full potential when the time comes.  Its just not viable yet as XP, is running like a dream.

I like the fact that it looks like a big ole flash app 

Stick around the forums though, im positive that i will have a good rant as soon as i do try it... good rant if good otherwise, well, need i say more. Actually the last time i tried something i was happy with (flash8) i went off my pip on the forum When its good, its good.