For those of us out here who can't code a site.  Any recommendations for what tool to use to build a site.  I've heard it from FP lovers, SB haters, etc etc etc...  ( I am now a SB hater. )

I am preparing to rebuild my site.  Long story.  This time, I want to do it right.  Aside from coding from scratch, is there a tool that can be used that offers same options as preview, HTML, and gives you a visual working space... with clean code?  Maybe I should have been a programmer. 

Feedback and opinions welcome.

Thank you in advance.

Michael

I I were starting from scratch, I'd jump into CSS.
There are lots of tutorial sites around and an increasing number of templates you can use as a springboard.

Dreamweaver 8 is pretty good overall - there's a little bit of a learning curve and you will inevitably learn some code, but the essence of the program is WYSIWYG.

They do have a 30 day free trial that you can download.

Michael -- you might want to try this new HTML Editor; has all the bells-n-whistles, including very easy-to-understand pre-made templates for HTML, CSS, images, etc ... HTML Builder

Well, G'day Machael.

This sure is a turn around from your last post. Sounds serious: Off line, huh.

TA uses Arachnophilia (spelling?) and Matte uses HTML Kit (spelling?) I haven't seen either of these programmes but I think they work much the same as the programme that I use which is EasyHTML by ToniArts. I think the other two programmes would be superior to mine but I stick to what I know. They're all free.

EasyHTML works like this:

There is a page where you write your code. You click a button and go to the programme's own browser and preview the page the same as on the net, then return to the html page.

The programme has many codeing helpers. You click to insert pieces of code. There is also a place to install your own short or long bits of code. You can make your own templates and save, ready to open a new copy for a new page.

As I said, I think the other programmes work in a similar way, but may be better.

Now, I think the following would be a good move for you:

I can't speak for Travelagent but I do know that he's a really nice and helpful guy (despite the front he puts on). PM him and see if he'll coach you. He gave me a tremendous lot of help when I was starting out. Pushed me into learning css. and redid my code to get me going.

If he'll help you, then Arachnophillia would be the obvious choice. Certainly not FrontPage or Dreamweaver.

I've just read your post again and realised that you said "Aside from codeing from scratch." But you also said "clean code." My code comes out compliant, first go, most of the time, and as I learn more about css I'm getting it leaner.

I really can't understand what people are on about when they say that hand coding is slow. The truth is that once you've got your template sorted out, it's just a matter of inserting your text, graphics and whatever else you have.

Best wishes for a speedy recovery,
Laurie.

Dreamweaver (8)

Clean html is a learning process. If you´re interested in html programming, you have to learn the program-language. There are dozens of books out there. O´Reilys are nice.

Then, put the things together and you´ll have a migthy webdesign-tool.

Dreamweaver is very considerable, it creates css-styles if choosen, cleans up your html, shows errors, marks up different code-elements, it checks browser-compatibility, validates html, helps you creating websites by using graphic elements instead of html-language, inserts flash, ... has server-tools for dynamic webpages,... and lots more. It´s easy to understand for beginners and also very helpful for pros.

You can create every site, you can imagine.

I´m using dreamweaver for years now, and the more I know, the more helpful it is.

greets,

ak

Ever see that movie where the dads out of town leaving the mum and son alone at home? no? Well the mother falls down the stairs leaving her in a state where she will die if she doesnt get to the hospital asap, so the 12 year old son gets her to the car and starts driving her across town to the nearest hospital even though he never learned how too drive... nice story... until he crashes into a tree 300m from the house.

Hidden meaning: you cant succesfully drive if you dont know how to, sure you can start the car and get going but eventually its gonna crash.

Html is a very simple language to learn and it will make your life alot easier when it comes to optimizing your site for search engines and applying the little quirks like google search bars... meta tags... stats analyzers... site maps (google)... java scripts etc. the list is countless and you can do these things in FP or DW but you wont know if its all that neat and clean until  you can read it... it took me one night to learn the html basics, the rest you pick up.

I personally believe the cleanest code is handwritten and then html tidied.  You can learn html and just about anything else quickly and easily from      www[dot]w3[dot]org           and then get a freebie html editor as mentioned by Laurie_m or even try PSPad (which is what I use) Google it.

In my opinion, I dont think you will get the results you seek by using a 
WYSIWYG program.

use it, dont use it, its up to you


Ryan Out - Im starting to enjoy my random Stories with hidden meaning

Everyone dissing DW8...for no reason

I use DW8, and it works fine for me...granted, I know code so I work DW to my coding style, but when I was a beginner DW was great.

As for crap code, etc....I never get it. It inserts what I need and that's it.

Not sure about HTML Editors other than this. DW8 and Notepad are all I need.

Perhaps I shall finally break down and try one...

i can not help but use you to carry on my analogy mark... it doesnt matter what car you use after you have learnt how to drive.... different vehicles work for different people... some cars destroy roads and others save the environment....  it doesnt matter as long as you can drive and work on it.

Thank you all for your input.  Since all I have is time, I will experiment with all the suggested avenues until I find something that works with the way my brain works.

And G'Day Laurie_M!  Hope all is well.  Change is a good thing.  I just finally got plowed into it.  And now I will concede, the foundation of the last site was quick sand.

In an odd way, I am excited.

Thanks again.

Michael -- the more you play with an HTML Editor that's comfortable for you, and experimenting with different coding, you'll find yourself getting excited as you see the changes take place in front of your eyes ... eventually, you'll start "branching out" and trying new challenges!

If we can help, just ask.

Dreamweaver for me.

Kind of steep learning curve. I may actually have skipped a few fundamentals because they were done automatically (a bad thing, in case that's not evident).

I have seen it insert code one time that was not helpful, where it did it 2300 times when it was. You can always hand code..

The experiment with the options and wait for something to click approach gets my nod...

I would agree with Matte, that experimenting with some CSS designs would be a good idea.

Regards,

Gary

i use dreamweaver but I don't think there is a program out there that produces 100% clean code. I learned HTML in school and my professor let me use notepad. It was a steep learning curve but he said I would thank him one....that day is here.

The book i borrowed from a mate of mine told me to use notepad.... it was a good book to (i learnt html in 24hours ) Its like learning to crawl before you run a marothon, if you cant run its going to get messy. Oh well, each to his own, whatever you decide will be your own method really so dont take our guidelines as the hard facts. Just about everyone did something differently (except for the people who learnt in school - sheep!!!  jk ).

Ryan_steyn wrote:

....people who learnt in school - sheep!!!  jk ).

Thats what I was thinking.... except for the 'j/k' part.

I can't remember how i learnt.

I think someone said

...building a web page is really easy, you just type <html></html>, then put a <head></head> and a <body></body> between the <html> and </html>. These are called tags. all you need to do now is put more tags in your head and body section - most need to be closed, but not all.........have fun

and that was 7 or 8 years ago

i started in notepad and now use textpad as it has syntax highlighting (for alomost every text based syntax under the sun)

then I found a german site all about HTML. I can't find it anymore but it was excellent. As for here and now; here are the only two resources you'll ever need

HTML 4.01 - http://www.w3.org/TR/1999/REC-html401-19991224/
CSS2 - http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-CSS2/propidx.html

I started with notepad as well and picked up HTML over time.

Then I started using a different text editor, the name of which escapes me.

Since I discovered syntax highlighting, I have been using HAPEdit.

I've always coded by hand and I've never used any software that cost anything.

Ah, isnt it beautiful, everyone coming together and sharing the cheapest solution to web design These are the happiest times for me, when i can pursue a carreer at absolutely no cost to me what so ever

I started building web pages using a free WYSIWYG program and was intrigued by the code it wrote, so I studied the code and taught myself HTML with the help of great reference and tutorial websites and books like 'webpages for dummies'. (those dummies books are a great starting point for learning many new things - owned several over the years!)

Here I am almost ten years later with a Bachelor Degree in Web Development.  Now I have to agree with both sides here - you certainly don't need to go to school to learn web development.  I chose to because it gave me the push I needed to learn some new things and I have a couple of nice (read 'expensive') frames on the wall behind my desk to show for it.  It has helped me secure freelance jobs as some companies do look for some kind of education beyond "self-taught".  I have learned much more on my own and continue to do so as technology continues to evolve.  I'm glad I have a college degree (the first in my family) and I'm proud of my hard work, but everyone learns in their own way and no one way is better than the other.  Those of us who went to school and those of us who teach ourselves (I happen to be both) should be proud of what we've learned and what we share together as developers.

I don't recommend relying on simply what a WYSIWYG program creates without understanding the code it has built.  It doesn't matter if you learn by taking classes, buying a book, or reading online. It doesn't matter if you use a WYSIWYG (free or paid)  or hand code as long as you understand the HTML and code behind it.  That's the only way you'll know if it is clean code or not and how to fix it when it breaks.  When you rely 100% on a program, you must work within the limitations of the program - when you rely 100% on what you can learn, you are only limited to your own imagination.

Nicely put Vivid

If it clarifies anything, i wasnt mocking those who learnt html in a class, the mere fact that you went to college doesnt make you a half sheep either but my mocking goes towards those who cant look past the class room tutorials, it is such a waisted oppurtunity to get into a mind frame where the rules are set out and one should best stick to em.

I enjoy out the box thinking (that is how much of the cool web coding came about afterall) and think anyone who boasts this profession should to. You definately went about it the right way though, learn it by yourself or with help from others then take a class. There are fundamentals and a spiffy piece of card that one can only get in class. And believe me that spiffy piece of paper can make a big difference (I studied PC Engineering). Just as long as one doesnt get caught in that twisted web of doing things in a set fashion without trying to make it better. Coding helps this creativity flow in a way that WYSIWYG program just cant. Use them by all means, just dont let it become a prison by which its features are all can work with.

A mechanic cant tune up a car without opening the bonnet, same applies to webpages. (I have to stop the car analogies). I hope i havent just typed myself into a circle? oh well, stay in school, dont be a sheep (unless your looking for love in the wrong countries ) AND PLEASE - get your hands dirty, its more fun than it looks.