I must admit to never having paid much attention to this particular aspect of a browser. The IE default is 'medium' and every PC I've ever used or looked at (incl many that weren't mine) seemed to be set on the default 'medium' and are never changed.

I find that there are some websites (a couple of mine and many online) which are affected quite badly by this setting if moved to any setting, larger or smaller, than 'medium'.

Obviously, those sites which use some sort of styles to control their text sizes, are only affected on text that is not part of the styles.

Is there a style setting that can be put in the header of a html page that will stop the 'text size' (in the view option) from affecting the text size...??? (OR any other 'fix' for one who doesn't like CSS).

Wiz 

why would you want to?

Let the users have fluid scalable text on your site. If it helps them read it easier go with it and not against it.

Why? Because if you don't technically speaking your site would be innaccessibile to those who have certain disabilities and as such you could get sued if someone complained about your site to those behind Section 508 in the US and the DDA in the UK.

Google "text size css accessible" and pay particular attention to the sites like webcredible and silktide who can explain the finer points of why not to much better than I can.

So, are you saying that all the sites that I mentioned that DON'T change text size when I change the size in my browser are already risking this 'backlash'??

Now I'm confused! If it's controlled by CSS styles it is OK for a blind man to be denied proper access, but if I seek a simpler way (FOR ME) it's illegal?

Please clarify...

Wiz

Well, technically people should be designing their sites to accomodate all text sizes - most don't even think about this, though, as it is quite difficult to do properly.

My father is legally blind (he can see - just not much) and is one of the few people who use the 'largest' setting in his browser.  Needless to say most pages look bad.

IF you want to turn this off in IE, you can do so with CSS by setting your font size with pixels.  This is actually an IE bug (or rather non-W3C compliance) and may disappear with IE7.  The only other method is to use images, which has its obvious drawbacks.

The BEST way to accomodate for this?  Work different text sizes into your design. It is not easy (in fact I find it downright difficult).  CSS makes it easier by allowing you to use 'em' as a width setting ('em' is size relative to the font size).

Sorry there is no easy answer to this one...

Wizard of Oz wrote:

Now I'm confused! If it's controlled by CSS styles it is OK for a blind man to be denied proper access, but if I seek a simpler way (FOR ME) it's illegal?

Oh, and to answer this - both CSS styles and non CSS styles are subject to the same rules.  If your site uses only CSS but breaks on trying to use larger text, there is no difference.

I am not aware of any legal cases on accessibility and imagine it is more of an issue for banks, gov't sites, etc, but it is something we should all pay attention to.

You really need to be looking into the accessibility laws concerning where you get your clients from, ie if you're in the UK the DDA is the thing to look into, Section 508 in the states, I'm not on the Australian version though I can be certain there is one.

My sister in law is blind so in a sense I am lucky that I can get here to check out my sites on her screenreader. If she can read it without any bugs I know it's already passed the real-life test.

SR, I bet you're right that its an IE bug, cause when I was playing around with some sites and the font sizes this morning I wasn't able to make the font sizes not change with IE ( I use IE7 and Firefox ).

But Wiz - if you've seen sites that do this, why not just look at their code and copy it ?

Off course you probably can't use Front Page for that 

I'm have been blind in one eye since birth and now, at 47, have needed glasses to use my PC on 800 x 600 (hence my other posts regarding the obvious move towards even higher screen resolutions).

On occasion, as I only need the glasses for reading and close work (20/20 imperial or 6/6 metric in my good eye for long sight), I have left my glasses at home and gone to my part-time work, which involves monitoring alarm systems on a PC screen!! So I have had to increase the text size in order to get through the shift... (can't use the 640 x resolution, which some PCs don't even have, because half the screen disappears).

Consequently, after my life story above, AND my being physically disabled, I am very well versed and QUITE sensitive to these issues.

My motivation for the post was: "I don't want my "very table reliant" site to go all out of whack (of course, it's tables that cause the major problems), just because some ol' dope can't find his glasses"

(I don't really mean the last bit, as sensitive and reliant as I am, but it sounded funny enough, to me). I suppose it's like Jews being able to tell Jewish jokes ala Mel Brookes - I figure handicapped people can tell handicapped jokes...

I digress (as per usual). It's not an issue now that I know that everyone else has the same problem. A level playing field is all I require (except for parking, of course!!)

Although, I am still interested why some sites LIKE THIS ONE!!!,  have text that doesn't change when you change the browser setting...??? Mark?????????

As for the legislations etc regarding making sites 'accessible'. In Oz, it's certainly not a requirement and we are nowhere near as litigious as the US or UK (although the influence does trickle down eventually with most other things).

I can't see us 'fair dinkums' going for a rule where a private individual has to supply suitable access to all and sundry, or be sued. Obviously, it's a courtesy, which is tacit and also one which would only lose visitors and annoy them if you didn't allow for such access.

Wiz 

Mutilated1 wrote:

SR, I bet you're right that its an IE bug, cause when I was playing around with some sites and the font sizes this morning I wasn't able to make the font sizes not change with IE ( I use IE7 and Firefox ).

But Wiz - if you've seen sites that do this, why not just look at their code and copy it ?

Off course you probably can't use Front Page for that 

I did, but couldn't find anything that I figured would have to do with it - So I supposed it must be in the CSS sheet or something (I'm not up on CSS - I DO need to have a look at it and get the gist, but too busy!!)

I treid IE7 and found that it didn't allow a couple of sites I use to render their frames correctly, so I threw it away. (MS, you've done it again!!!)

Wiz

maybe if you can show us a page where the font size is not adjustable, we can show you what to do to fix your site that way

I couldn't find any pages like that when I looked

Wiz - the font size changes for me on FF on the forum.

On the subject of accessibility, perhaps a have a pay per view for the minority who need special font sizes, or justa PDF of the site. Or maybe different versions for men and women, or why don't all US sites have to have a Spanish version, I be there are more Spanish only speakers than Blind in ther USA...world has gone mad. If your site does not specifically market that population, you should not have to cater for it.

Here's a thought - a directory of compliant sites - there would still be few enough around as to make it viable.

rant over

matte, the reason that there is so much emphasis on making sites accessable to the handicap as opposed to say people that speak spanish, is because for a big category of sites are required to be section 508 compliant - thats just how it is in the United States

My personal websites 508 compliance doesn't matter at all, but the sites I work on at work have to be 508 compliant because our customers cant buy them otherwise

but yeah, I agree making them that way doesn't make sense for a lot of sites

so why dont magazines have to all have large print versions I wonder..

Spanish speakers cannot buy from your non personal sites if they don't know Emglish - I guess this is why Bush is building the wall  -  to save you all the bother from other language sites!

THIS VERY PAGE YOU ARE READING NOW.

Some of the headings change size, but the bulk of the text body stays the same size regardless of what text setting you choose...

It's OK now, as I said, I have no need to fix my sites if they are behaving much the same as most other pages around. Obviously, people in general will be aware that sites render 'out of whack' when they use their larger or smaller settings, so it doesn't reflect on MY site particularly, as most do the same thing.

Wiz 

matte wrote:

Wiz - the font size changes for me on FF on the forum.

Sorry mate, I should have been clearer, I'm talking about 'Browsers'. You know, those things that allow you to view Internet content, such as web pages, email etc.

I thought you had one...

Wizard of Oz wrote:

THIS VERY PAGE YOU ARE READING NOW.

Some of the headings change size, but the bulk of the text body stays the same size regardless of what text setting you choose...

It's OK now, as I said, I have no need to fix my sites if they are behaving much the same as most other pages around. Obviously, people in general will be aware that sites render 'out of whack' when they use their larger or smaller settings, so it doesn't reflect on MY site particularly, as most do the same thing.

Wiz 

Its because I used pixels to define the text size for a lot of the fonts on the page.  And, as I said above, IE does not resize pixels - only points (which are a nightmare for accessibility).

Do I like this?  No - its something that should change on the site, but as I said before, accessibility can be very difficult to design for AND make cross-browser compatible.

I can make font sizes change on the forum - in FF hold the ctrl button and scroll the mouse scroll wheel.

use CSS: absolute text size (eg. font-size: 12pt) can´t be changed, text with smaller/bigger-tags will change if the browser is specified.

This works with IE, but not with safari browsers. The thing is, that´s a mistake, you should take care about such things sooner.

I think, barrier free web-design is important.

best regards,

ak

matte wrote:

I can make font sizes change on the forum - in FF hold the ctrl button and scroll the mouse scroll wheel.

or CTRL - and CTRL + for those without a mouse wheel. Speaking of mouse wheels I found this some time back, thought it was cool but have no use for it all, it lives in my bookmarks till that day comes!

Wizard of Oz wrote:

matte wrote:

Wiz - the font size changes for me on FF on the forum.

Sorry mate, I should have been clearer, I'm talking about 'Browsers'. You know, those things that allow you to view Internet content, such as web pages, email etc.

I thought you had one...

oh no you didn't

don't diss Firefox