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Hey all…

We’re having a bit of a chuckle around the office here about this, so I figured I’d post it;

In case no one noticed there is a great deal of ‘tongue in cheek’ involved here. It is also slanted to be mildly argumentative to the whole ‘cult of Page Rank’.
Why? I decided that this approach, while not far at all from my true beliefs, elicited the best response in the community. I spent time on a number of SEO/SEM forums discussing this. It often turned passionate and tempers did grow. Chatting with my staff, we decided a strong emotional response is just what this topic needed. So the article was written as such.

It keeps getting lost, so I shall say it again; ‘I am talking about a measurable value of Page Rank’. This is about where it should be in your SEO toolbox. Not 'IF' it should be there at all. Just what ‘weighting’ filters we in the SEO world should put on it ourselves when considering SEO programs.

Feel free to ask ANYTHING I can take it after my walk over the hot coals of The Cult of PR.

Last edited by thegyspsy (2006-07-24 11:28:07)

I dunno.

TheGypsy did a great job trying to convince us that PR doesn't matter. But, unfortunately, the public doesn't know this, and public perception is what we are dealing with.

We can scream from the rooftops that the earth is round, but if people still believe the world is flat, then it might as well be. Webmasters are not dealing with WHAT IS, but with what PEOPLE THINK IT IS. Thus, I don't see the "death" of the Page Rank coming anytime soon, unless we storm the citadels and tell the "powers that be" to stop the nonsense.

To determine Page Rankings, MSN is using toolbar data. So is Alexa. There's no question, my work is being judged. My rankings matter to me, because they seem to matter to customers. The higher my rank, the higher the level of their trust in my site. Like the BBB logo that people spend hundreds of dollars for the right to put on their site, even though the Better Business Bureau logo doesn't mean much in real terms. Ebay rates us. PayPal rates us. The internet is increasingly using "ratings" to convince surfers "come on in, the water's fine". Look at all the awards people post on their sites (I'm guilty of that).

I am not saying it is without its relative value, it’s mere existence quantifies that. It just doesn’t have a ‘measurable’ value that warrants earmarking any serious marketing dollars. It is being overvalued in today’s SEO landscape. Don’t spend time and money trying to get a higher Page Rank. Just love it for what it is.

I want to be conviced, but so far, I'm still on the fence about PR.

I'm not sure if PR is important. I'll let you know when I get a PR=11 ;-)

cooljools wrote:

I dunno.

TheGypsy did a great job trying to convince us that PR doesn't matter. But, unfortunately, the public doesn't know this, and public perception is what we are dealing with.

We can scream from the rooftops that the earth is round, but if people still believe the world is flat, then it might as well be. Webmasters are not dealing with WHAT IS, but with what PEOPLE THINK IT IS. Thus, I don't see the "death" of the Page Rank coming anytime soon, unless we storm the citadels and tell the "powers that be" to stop the nonsense.

To determine Page Rankings, MSN is using toolbar data. So is Alexa. There's no question, my work is being judged. My rankings matter to me, because they seem to matter to customers. The higher my rank, the higher the level of their trust in my site. Like the BBB logo that people spend hundreds of dollars for the right to put on their site, even though the Better Business Bureau logo doesn't mean much in real terms. Ebay rates us. PayPal rates us. The internet is increasingly using "ratings" to convince surfers "come on in, the water's fine". Look at all the awards people post on their sites (I'm guilty of that).

I am not saying it is without its relative value, it’s mere existence quantifies that. It just doesn’t have a ‘measurable’ value that warrants earmarking any serious marketing dollars. It is being overvalued in today’s SEO landscape. Don’t spend time and money trying to get a higher Page Rank. Just love it for what it is.

I want to be conviced, but so far, I'm still on the fence about PR.

Now this argument I have also faced. I have 2 problems;

1.    There is absolutely no data to support consumers are putting any value into it for purchasing decisions. Please do send me some. That is the goal of this exercise. In a world with reams of marketing/user behavior metrics data and people ‘looking for an edge’ if this is true, the data should be easy to find. Find it. I shall cease on that point.
2.    I keep saying this, a ‘measurable value’. One that when I say to a client, ‘Oh we should also consider investing YOUR money into obtaining a higher PageRank’ and he says, “Where’s my ROI?” I can look him square in the monitor and say “THIS IS HOW”. My beliefs, theories and procedures effect many clients. None of which are rich enough for me to be playing with their money and their livelihoods. So I ask; ‘What is the ‘measurable’ value of Page Rank’ Not the theoretical, nor the emotional.

All research and surveys depend on how the questions/assumptions are framed. I know it has a ‘value’ I am interested in it’s measurable value that makes it an areas for investment in a serious SEO/SEM campaign.

This is my quest…..

Last edited by thegyspsy (2006-07-24 14:14:21)

1.    There is absolutely no data to support consumers are putting any value into it for purchasing decisions.

And there is absolutely no data showing that consumers aren't influenced by a site's PR either. As a consumer, I consider many factors when buying from a web site.

Here's a hypothetical scenario:

Say I'm looking to buy a digicam. I narrow my lengthy search down to the 2 sites I like the most, for whatever reasons (some conscious, some unconscious). And let's just say, for the sake of discussion, that these two sites are exactly equal in every aspect: both have the product I want, both can ship it fast, same price, same everything, ok?

HOWEVER, one of the 2 web sites in question has a PR 9, while the other site has a PR of 2, both assignations having come from one of the most powerful internet presences on the web today (Google). Now I ask you, which site do you think most people would buy from?

I fully understand the need for hard data to show your clients, but I don't think this data is yet available, or if it will ever be. Perhaps importance of PR is, at this point, a matter of conjecture.

Now, Gypsy, surely you can recommend that a high PR would be a reasonable goal for your clients, when presented as a part of the whole SEO/SEM campaign. You wouldn't recommend they seek a low PR, would you? They don't have to devote a huge portion of their budget towards rankings, but, OTOH, to ignore PR implications would be silly.

Seems simple to me. Since PR is a relatively new factor on the net, can't you just be open and say, "We don't yet know what impact, if any, this PR thing has on comsumers, but it's better to have a dog in the fight."

sadly there has been an interchangeability of the terms PR and rankings used in this thread - which shows just how many really are truely on the ball.

I had a rant on this titled Page rank and the psychological impact of the thin green line which looked at isses of PR when looking at link exchanging etc

LGB???

Well my friends, and to those indifferent to my little ‘journey’, it has come time for me to move on. We all owe it to ourselves and those we counsel, to make every effort to give the best possible advice/service. That was my goal, and I feel the seed is planted to create discussions beyond the LGB as well as about it in a ‘guarded’ light. Hopefully we have served to give more perspective on things.

I can’t really spend much more time on this, now can I? It could soon verge on hypocritical. I have just completed a marathon (ask Mark) of forums rounds (5-6? Lost count) in the process of attempting create more discussion about Page Rank than, “I have a PR3”, “We went up to a PR5!” “I am down to a PR1 HELP ME!”


It's 3am, just finshed up with a client in New Zealand (late afternoon there). Which I might add, included the obligatory dicsussion of PR. I am utterly drained, exhausted and have debated my last algorithm implication for a little while. As long as this serves to provide, ultimately, better options to the end user (forum readers/clients) I am a happy guy. I shall keep on popping in to this post to do what I can to clarify my stance, but who cares what I think. What is going to mater is what YOU think the next time some one goes on about Page Rank. We built this car together. Where you drive it from here is truly your concern.  Just please, drive safe.

To be continued……

DiskFaktory wrote:

Feel free to ask ANYTHING I can take it after my walk over the hot coals of The Cult of PR.

Could God make a rock so big that even he couldn't lift it?


Ha ha, i'm kidding.

Who really cares about PR? It seems to be a pseudo-average of (some) of the things that factor into good search engine rankings. The only person who I have met who puts any value in the PR number is my boss, and he doesn't know anything about anything. (shhhh)

My 1 1/2 cents,
Jason Cole

Well I am not God..or even close... but I certainly created something waay beyond me. It started as a mere bit of angst with folks reliance on it and ended up as a crusade to ensure NOOBs and SEO enthusiasts alike, put less value on it.

I think your statement ‘pseudo-average of (some) of the things’ is as close to the truth as I care to go IMO. As I have said.. it’s not really ‘Who Cares’, I used these techniques to ensure I got ‘eyes’ to my plight. It’s about ‘how valuable is it?’

I come from the old school world of brick and mortar development. If you look at a Paid Text Link as an advertising source (to get targeted traffic) and NOT a way to get better PR, the theory falls apart.

With a newspaper, the cost of the advertising space is relative to the distribution (eyes) that is has. Simple. Advertising in the New York Times will cost you more than you local town news tattler.
Now we go back to the web advertising model; Do I want

A.Get my Text Link Ad on a page that has a high PageRank
B.Get my Text Link Ad on a page that has high volumes of targeted traffic?

Option A, doesn’t factor into it. Take some of your targeted terms and search Google. Look at the results and choose your Ad location based on the Rankings and potential traffic.

Unfortunately many seem to believe that Option A is the preferred way to go. This is strange to me.

Just one more in the long line of mysteries that ‘the Cult of PR’ has created.

...that's mY 2 CENTS (1.80c Canadian)

Last edited by thegyspsy (2006-07-26 12:45:17)

dann wrote:

You all seem to be focused on the LGB (little green bar). Is it not possible that the higher ranked websites were optimized for different search terms and happend to show up in the serps just becuase of the high pr. AKA(also known as) IBLO (in bound link optimization). When you become such experts at SEO (search engine optimization) you might become a little bit blind to the obvious.

Naw... PageRank = NADA in SERPs.. PageRank = VERY LITTLE

I am not only experienced, but I have fun friends in high places.. and PR has been steadily losing steam since 2004 (Florida/HillTop updates)...

I just thought that it wasn't publicized enough. To many SEO 'enthusiasts' still place great importance on PR and the LGB... I am just trying to educate on items that are OLD NEWS

We have ranked PR0s in TOP 5 positions against PR5-7 ... with a PR0 .... SEO is about traffic...nothing else... so PR??? Dunno looks kinda useles to us here...