What is your level of understand, do you do with the flow, are you a programmer who hates it or loves it?

That's a very broad question, mate. Can you be a little more specific? What is it you actually want to know?
Wiz

At My design and development firm I have my staff study everything from Graphic Design and advertising theory (color use, page layout etc..) right to landscape drawing and cartooning/caricature.

We have studies and white papers on web page layout and usability and they work with our marketing team to refine conversion/closing rates which imparts marketing knowledge to the designers as well.

Myself, while no longer involved in the design end much professionally, have an art background (as well as business admin) that spans nearly 3 decades.

I don’t think programmers necessarily NEED to understand that area, as long as a good project manager conveys the templating/layout requirements of the project in question.

Better with the backend stuff myself.  I'd rather leave the layout/design to someone with more artistic creativity.

That being said, I'm pretty good with the HTML/CSS stuff that goes into it.  As far as it looking pretty... let's just say I'm better with functional and practical.

graphic design, information design, visitor flow design, layout design.

Which one??

There is no one thing as 'web design'

Too many web designers (and their clients) sites show some know about one, but not much about the others.

I would say that there is.  Web design would be the big picture, just as there is "car design".  Not all of them come out looking the same, because they incorporate the different parts in different ways, but in the end, they are all websites.

Web design involves client site technologies,
HTML, CSS, JavaScript, Graphic Design etc.

You may not want to master all of them.
But I think HTML is a must. If you know
it well you can hire others for works like
Graphic Design.

After a graphic is given to you, you should
know where to place it, right?

After a programmer writing a script
you should know to which form attribute
you should attach it, right?

webgaya.

I agree with whoever it was earlier who said that Web Design encompasses an entire process. Inded it does. In fact, all of those prviously mentioned, and more, for instance SEO.

I don't have a lot of difficulty in any of the areas I need to deal with, simply because my design business consists almost entirely of those who are making their first foray into website ownership and their main goal is to establsh an Internet presence and achieve some respectable rankings.

This goal I'm quite capable of, while still putting together an asthetically pleasing, functional, user friendly website, without much in the way of 'hoop-la' and certainly no Flash or the like.

I have only once had to resort to a graphic designer/artist to design a logo incorporated into a header. I can generally do quite a good job with 'geometric' type design, but when it comes to actual drawing - I held the door open for everyone, while God handed out the drawing hands (or eyes, whatever).

I think each component, as mentioned before, is as important and has as much impact in any given website, yet there are some websites which will rely more heavily on one or two aspects than the others.

It's something I've only just begun to actually 'advertise via website' that I do and I have done well in the last 3 months to get, put together and satisfy (in all modesty) work for a total of seven clients in that time. So it's a pretty new part of my 'Internet adventure' - Still very much involved in Affiliate Marketing and sale of my book, but otherwise, I think the web design work could easily, in a short time, eclipse the others in earnings, simply becasue of the demand from small businesses and home businesses that haven't had $1,000 or $1,500 to go to the 'top of the line' pofessionals'. Of course, now they can get a respectable, functional website for less than half that price - with hosting and domain thrown in.

One things for sure, the 'Web Design' niche of the Internet has changed in the last couple of years.
I've had to go about the long way (i.e. trial and error building my own sites and fixing, building, and fixing again, and always learning) to get to a point where I can truthfully advertise a web design and building service (also SEO incorporated or as a service in it's own right). All I have to do now, is get a handle on this 'shopping cart' caper. Very confusing!!!

Wiz

WOW...helluva post..

I think the author, though now unavailable for clarification, was interested in any technical design attributes of the gang at large and specifically programmers. Or so it would seem.

Areas such as color theory, leading, layout and the like. I am guessing the answer is NO ... ha ha ha ha.. Since no one has even picked up on that part. 

I actually have a repository of such information and fully encourage our web designers to learn about Art history and theory. It will greatly enhance one's abilities and create fresh new approaches. So, if you're a web designer or an SEO tactician, some knowledge of graphic design/advertising theory can only help.

Just like in any field, theory is totally useless without practical experience.

travelagent wrote:

Just like in any field, theory is totally useless without practical experience.

True enough.  Although I personally don't have a strong background in design theory, I do have a light background.  What I've found is that everytime I build a site, it is just a little more technically and design-wise competent than the last. Its the practice which is enforcing the theories I am picking up here and there.

Ironically enough, though, now that I personally feel as if I am getting a handle on what needs to be done for a good design, I've hired my first real designer for a project. I guess I finally realized that you can know all the CSS and HTML you want, but if you are not able to put together elements in a logical, warm, inviting fashion, it doesn't matter.  A designer is definitely someone who thinks a little different than the rest of us.

I guess I finally realized that you can know all the CSS and HTML you want, but if you are not able to put together elements in a logical, warm, inviting fashion, it doesn't matter.

This is my point - there are many elements which means the term web designer is a fallacy.
There is no such thing as a car designer - one person shapes the outside another looks at erginomics, another engine, another something else.

My poiunt is that these days a business can be involved in web design, but it is a skiilled team that is needed generally to make it happen successfully

I think that you missed my point matte.  "Web design" as stated above, encompasses the range of different aspects of what makes a website work - graphics, usability, etc., just as "car design" encompasses the range of what makes a car what it is.

It has nothing to do with whether you think that one person can do the job or not.  Stating that web design encompasses all has nothing to do with whether a "web designer" actually can do it all.

Also, having a group do it all, as with car designing teams, deals more with efficiency and an idea pool and research than it does with whether a single person is capable of doing it all.

ha ha ha... I just love a wandering thread.... from Art/Design theory.. to automobiles and the meaning of 'wed designer' woo woo.. go go Gadget brain!

I think I can tie Tink back around though. The original questions 'appeared' to be geared towards programmers and their understanding of the artistic side of things....

So, Tink discusses the functions of the 'team, which is entirely correct, and the parts of the whole. So, we can re-attach to the original post by again asking if the programmers (a 'part' of the team) SHOULD have some understanding of the design aspects, and now secondly, SHOULD the designers know about the limitations and functions of the programming department?'

Now, let's see where we go... ha ha haha

In that respect, I think that programmers should know something about the limitations and abilities of design, and vice-versa, but there is a reason why the programmer isn't a designer and vice-versa.

The designer should be focused on design - what works and what doesn't.  The programmer should be focused on the coding and making it interact with the design.

thegypsy wrote:

WOW...helluva post..

I think the author, though now unavailable for clarification, was interested in any technical design attributes of the gang at large and specifically programmers. Or so it would seem.

Areas such as color theory, leading, layout and the like. I am guessing the answer is NO ... ha ha ha ha.. Since no one has even picked up on that part. 

I actually have a repository of such information and fully encourage our web designers to learn about Art history and theory. It will greatly enhance one's abilities and create fresh new approaches. So, if you're a web designer or an SEO tactician, some knowledge of graphic design/advertising theory can only help.

I imagine you're talking about my post?? If so, I do tend to stretch it out and wander from place to place, as I will probably do here!!

I don't see how you gleaned this from that very broad question, but we have a topic and that's what counts.... I suppose...

As for the discussion, where it lays now, I have a specific analogy that exemplifies the discussion in so far as the "different roles, skills, fields of knowledge and expertise being self defined, in their own right, but also existing as a contributing component of a larger project-like undertaking and consequent result".

In the "real world", as I'm sure many who have worked outside of the 'total cyber-space' environment in which we now involve ourselves know, there are many commercial undertakings that reflect this same difference of definition when a multitude of disciplines come together to form a 'project', when each (or at least many) of these disciplines can be, in ther own right, the SINGLE discipline in there own specific area of expertise in another situation.

Ex builders will know exactly what I mean, (this is one of the areas of 'normal everyday work' I was involved in prior to my  becoming disabled). There is a 'Builder', who, at least in this country needs to study for and be granted a Builders License to be qualified to oversee the myriad of different tradespeople who will be enguaged in a project. This 'Builder' often has a specific 'trade' background' but not necessarily (if he can get thru the required disciplines of the Builders License Course and pass, he need not be, or have ever been, any of the tradespeople involved).

When asked what he does, this person says, "I'm a Builder". However, the Carpenter says, "I'm a Carpenter". The Bricky says "I'm a Bricklayer" and so on. Each of these trades, for which each person has spent the mandatory time at a Tertiary Educational (Technical or Trade College, whatever)
facility (for theory) and 3, 4 or even 5 years as an 'Apprentice' (I'm not sure if that's what they're called elsewhere) and are Tradespeople, who will often, perform a service in there own right, without being part of a larger project or undertaking. Those such as a Bricklayer. Plumber, Electrician etc. will often be required to simply do a job, which involves only their skill. In fact, I suspect this is the case more often than not, with most. Some may do both 'piecemeal' and 'contract' work.

This being the case, in a 'project' environment, the Builder, as I said, doesn't need to be, so may not necessarily be a tradesperson of any description, yet THEY are the one with the tilte " Builder" and their position or job description is that of "Builder".

Same, same, with the discussion we're having here. The person who is the Web Designer, is in reality, the person who 'organises the project ' (i.e. the person who 'brings it all together', supervises the work and timetable aspects of the project and, makes sure that each 'discipline has their contribution ready so that another is not dl\elayed etc and possibly also, liases with the client etc).

This person may not necessarily be a specialist in any of the relative fields of knowledge required in the designing, building, putting together, SEO, tweaking etc (from start to finish) of a website. I suppose, those who have the skills, knowledge and expertise to deliver their portion of the overall product, refer to themselves as programmers, graphic artsists etc. in much the same way as the Carpenters and Electricians on a building site.

So, we're not talking about anything new here. In a 'multi-person' organisation, anyone can be a 'Web Designer' if they are the person who is, if you like, the one who has the responsibility of making sure the client's needs and wants are interpreted, produced and presented as required and on time, as with any kind of project. They would be, in fact, a Project Manager, if an equivalent is realy necessary.

In a 'one man' operation, even though some of the disciplines are 'farmed out' to those with the expertise he/she doesn't possess, is still, if not by definition, is certainly in reality, the Web Designer.

There you go. I think that was longer than the first one - Although I hope, understood and judged as correct.

Wiz

ThomasB wrote:

What is your level of understand, do you do with the flow, are you a programmer who hates it or loves it?

Ha ha ha.. how modest. Actually I meant the ORIGINAL poster. Nere to be seen since...  now does what I wrote make more sense?