Wizard of Oz wrote:

I must admit, it would be great to have a program that writes so that there are no issues between the different browsers. Something I have to be continually careful of, when using Frontpage.

Thats what i hate frontpage for... Here's an example.. have a look at the site below in Internet explorer and mozilla firefox..(as if ms wants the site made by them to be displayed only in their browsers )

http://varionweb.netfirms.com/main page.htm

Wizard of Oz wrote:

I must admit, it would be great to have a program that writes so that there are no issues between the different browsers. Something I have to be continually careful of, when using Frontpage.

Wiz 

Now you know why 98% of the entire World don't like / use MicroSTOOPID FrontPage -- we use REAL HTML Editors and code by hand -- which is by far, much faster and easier ... especially, when we're browsing thru our EASY-TO-NAVIGATE CODE to make changes rapidly...

Wizard of Oz wrote:
I must admit, it would be great to have a program that writes so that there are no issues between the different browsers. Something I have to be continually careful of, when using Frontpage.

FrontPage has always been focused on developing for other Microsoft products rather than what is considered standard.  We will be dealing with browser differences forever unless the browser makers can agree on one standard and one standard only.  It's a lot better today than years ago, but they still have a long way to go.  This is why I find it so important to develop clean code and use CSS as it was intended - to separate the content from the presentation - as much as possible.

The newest browsers are getting so much better at supporting CSS, but there is still some differences, many of which can be worked out and are well documented throughout the web development community. 

There is so much more to web development than just creating a pretty website.  Things like accessibility, clean code, separation of presentation elements from content, dynamic capabilities, site purpose, audience evaluation, etc.  Yet, I see Microsoft promoting it's "quick & dirty" site building solution to the mass market essentially mocking the professional development community as unnecessary for the average website.   For those who dare to move beyond FrontPage, a whole new world of development knowledge will be opened to them.  Knowledge that is necessary in today's competitive Internet.  A "simple" website just doesn't cut it anymore.  This evolution of technologies and skills will continue as the Internet is constantly changing.  Keep up or be left behind, I say.

Your philosophy is wonderful but when you step on a limb and state something like “Keep up or be left behind, I say” you should at least have a site that validates and demonstrates your superior skills. In my opinion you site falls way short of your proclamations.

FP users don’t sit around and bash hand coders, we learn from them, and believe it or not, many of them offer to help us make better use of what we have, regardless of our lack of resources or skill sets. Visit the Los Altos Incubator for some insight on today's competitive Internet. End of rant (EOR)

Have a good day

waveshoppe wrote:

FP users don’t sit around and bash hand coders, we learn from them, and believe it or not, many of them offer to help us make better use of what we have, regardless of our lack of resources or skill sets.

LOL - like the TV commercial say's ... DITCH THE DIAL-UP ... I was hoping by now you would've learned to DITCH THE FRONT PAGE as much as I and others have tried to teach you.

travelagent wrote:

waveshoppe wrote:

FP users don’t sit around and bash hand coders, we learn from them, and believe it or not,

many of them

offer to help us make better use of what we have, regardless of our lack of resources or skill sets.

LOL - like the TV commercial say's ... DITCH THE DIAL-UP ... I was hoping by now you would've learned to DITCH THE FRONT PAGE as much as I and others have tried to teach you.

Oh speaking of people who don’t fall into the category of “many of them”.

I am learning Java and I should get extra points because I can make something that ACTUALLY works with FP

I'm currently testing the software cited in the original post....

...and so far it doesn't seem too bad.

Here's the issue for me:

I hand code everything (HTML, CSS and PHP ) in TextPad and make sure the web output is standards compliant accessible code.

My business partner uses FrontPage, Web-bots and the ASP-like crap that FP makes - I then have to wade through his code to make it usable. Half the time I give him great templates which the FP stuff breaks as it's best not to use tables, nested <font> tags and the like.

What I really need is for him to use something like the programme being offered (Expression).... may come back to you later with findings of this research..........

whatever gud you say about frontpage, still it has drawbacks and that too which are harmful for professional website. there's no doubt it increases the coding by adding useless things which slowes the time rate. second, it discourages the use of css and we all know that css is an exceptionally gud lang to replace lots in HTML(now dont tell me that we dont require css!). taking these two basic considerations in mind there's no doubt frontpage is not a gud WYSIWYG editor unless you know everythin about coding and are using frontpage(which is impossible!). i dont blame the whole microsoft as they have given me what i m workin on but still i cant help me from tellin you to stop using frontpage b'cos it really doesnt adhere to standards and is truly bad for professional use.

travelagent wrote:

Now you know why 98% of the entire World don't like / use MicroSTOOPID FrontPage -- we use REAL HTML Editors and code by hand -- which is by far, much faster and easier ... especially, when we're browsing thru our EASY-TO-NAVIGATE CODE to make changes rapidly...

This is the best advice i have also to give, believe in originality..."code by hand -- which is by far, much faster and easier"
Regards,
Varun

waveshoppe wrote:

Oh speaking of people who don’t fall into the category of “many of them”.

I am learning Java and I should get extra points because I can make something that ACTUALLY works with FP

Uh oh -- learning Java, huh?  Does that mean I'm gonna have to answer more questions from you?

Northie wrote:

I hand code everything (HTML, CSS and PHP ) in TextPad and make sure the web output is standards compliant accessible code.

My business partner uses FrontPage, Web-bots and the ASP-like crap that FP makes - I then have to wade through his code to make it usable. Half the time I give him great templates which the FP stuff breaks as it's best not to use tables, nested <font> tags and the like.

Heh heh -- welcome to the Hand Coders Club!

You do it just like I do, except I do my HTML in an HTML Editor, and preview it before uploading to the server.

Yessir -- FP screws up more code, and inserts so much useless code, I honestly can't understand how anyone in their right mind can "enjoy" such crap -- especially if you have a large site and try to edit or delete a certain snippet of code; my gawd, you have to scroll forever and strain your eyes hoping you do it right ... I don't have the time nor patience to do that; especially if I can hand code it in seconds and go on to something else!

vari_007 wrote:

there's no doubt frontpage is not a gud WYSIWYG editor unless you know everythin about coding and are using frontpage(which is impossible!).

Do I understand you to say that unless you use FP as a wysiwyg it is useless?

TA wrote:

Northie wrote:

I hand code everything (HTML, CSS and PHP ) in TextPad and make sure the web output is standards compliant accessible code.

    My business partner uses FrontPage, Web-bots and the ASP-like crap that FP makes - I then have to wade through his code to make it usable. Half the time I give him great templates which the FP stuff breaks as it's best not to use tables, nested <font> tags and the like.

Heh heh -- welcome to the Hand Coders Club!

We knew that would get your attention.

travelagent wrote:

You do it just like I do, except I do my HTML in an HTML Editor, and preview it before uploading to the server.

TextPad and FireFox is all I need

waveshoppe wrote:
Your philosophy is wonderful but when you step on a limb and state something like “Keep up or be left behind, I say” you should at least have a site that validates and demonstrates your superior skills. In my opinion you site falls way short of your proclamations

I'll have to take a closer look at my site for validation issues.  I believe it's the blog feed.

In the meantime, my comment about "Keep up or be left behind, I say" is in reference to the limited, Microsoft focused nature of FrontPage and how it handles the way a site is built.  If a web developer never ventures outside of the WYSIWYG program to see the vast technologies and trends in use today, they will be left behind simply because the Web will continue to evolve with or without them.

I don't bash FP users, I used to be one of them. I bash FP itself, because I learned how horrible the code it created actually was.  I don't claim to be superior in my skill set - every developer uses different skill sets to do what they do.  Mine happes to focus on open source software, PHP, CSS etc.  I don't dabble at all with Java for the web, ASP, .NET frameworks, etc.  Every developer is at a different stage in their eductation. Every developer uses different creative styles. 

If you feel that my site "falls way short" of my proclamations, I invite you to contact me with your opinions.  I'd love to hear your thoughts.  I'm open to constructive criticism.  This is a great forum and I'm here to learn from others just as much as give my own advice.

vivid wrote:

If you feel that my site "falls way short" of my proclamations, I invite you to contact me with your opinions.  I'd love to hear your thoughts.  I'm open to constructive criticism.  This is a great forum and I'm here to learn from others just as much as give my own advice.

Pages look good - but there's a huge block of red space on the right (my screen is 1280*1024) - maybe a centre-aligned main column......just a thought, at the end of the day it's up to you

ColoEagle wrote:

Do I understand you to say that unless you use FP as a wysiwyg it is useless?

Common ColoEagle, didnt you understand from my big speech that how much i hate fp. i just gave it as an instance to tell you that you need to be a coding expert to remove what fp adds... and by the way, fp used as anythin is useless!

hey vivid, your site is not bad, infact it is gud enough... jst think about what Northie said... also do check your support emails..

vivid wrote:

I don't bash FP users, I used to be one of them. I bash FP itself, because I learned how horrible the code it created actually was.

That's exactly our point - we're bashing FP itself, not the users.

This is great, i'm lovin it.

With all the comments everyone is saying about FP being a lousy site builder I am in agreement when you use WYSIWYG.

Everyone is saying the same thing - you need to handcode

With handcoding it really doesn't matter what you use.
textpad, html editor, or the overpriced DW. Handcoding eliminates what someone else has programmed and the way they think it should be.
I do everything by hand, CSS and the HTML. No auto stuff here.

Are you ready TA?
I use FP for all my sites.

IMHO - The WYSIWYG programs are designed for those that do not want to take the time to learn to handcode or want to get a site up fairly quick and then learn as they go.

There is an advantage to FP. With the code it places from WYSIWYG this is actually beneficial to someone who needs to see improper coding and then correct it by learning the correct coding.

We have all heard this,
"The best way to learn is from someone elses mistakes"

This reply is not aimed at anyone in particular, but merely states my opinions.....

ColoEagle wrote:

IMHO - The WYSIWYG programs are designed for those that do not want to take the time to learn to hand code or want to get a site up fairly quick and then learn as they go.

IMHO - if it were quick and easy to do things right, then there would be more better sites out there, ranking well and easily accessible.

Sure there's a quick and easy way to most stuff, but those who do it well are those who have the knowledge and skills; and are prepared to put the time and effort in that a good job requires.

As an aside / rant (but related to my point above)

I'm mainly in the MFA & affiliate game - i work bloody hard at marketing - matching up potential buyers with products from sellers that are of interest. Looking at things in this light I can see that i am offering a 'service'. As such I try to build informative, useful sites for my visitors to use (and hope they click and make purchases!!!). What really annoys me is the 'new-kid-on-the-block-with-no-idea' expecting a quick fix solution to a crappy MFA site and expecting to earn big bucks and then getting upset when their piss-poor effort doesn't bring in the green.

My point is this - if FP was any good then many more pros would be using it. If SEO was easy there'd be more millionaires. If there was a quick fix / easy option to making sustainable living from a web business then more people would be succeeding at it.

vari_007 writes:
hey vivid, your site is not bad, infact it is gud enough... jst think about what Northie said... also do check your support emails..

Thanks for the input.  I will definitely consider moving to a centered layout.  Was that you that put in a ticket yesterday?  I saw that, and I am playing catch up today, so I'll give you a shout back.

ColoEagle writes:
IMHO - The WYSIWYG programs are designed for those that do not want to take the time to learn to handcode or want to get a site up fairly quick and then learn as they go.

I agree that this may be the case for many people. However, personally, I use a combination of Dreamweaver and hand-coding.  I simply don't see the point of handcoding the grunt work, like tables and such, when a great editor can do it in a matter of seconds.  Also, I utilize the template system quite often making sitewide updates a breeze.  I let the program do the bulk of the work and tweak where I need to.  This system of development works best for me.  However, I do agree with your point about using WYSIWYG to learn, as that is exactly how I started years ago - looking at the code the WYSIWYG was creating.

ColoEagle wrote:

Are you ready TA?
I use FP for all my sites.

We have all heard this -- "The best way to learn is from someone elses mistakes"

Oh, great CE -- now that you told me that, the honeymoon's over...

"The best way to learn is from someone elses mistakes" -- is to NEVER use FP...