A topic that will see no end...

Microsoft has released a new standards based WYSIWIG website creater.  I haven't looked into it with any level of detail, but it may be quite nice.

http://www.microsoft.com/products/expre … fault.mspx

Looks to me like a professionally-done tool, but only if you are using a IIS server,
since it uses ASP.NET for server-side scripting.

I don't know what you just said, Prof!! All I know is I have a good hosting package and a GREAT host. That's all I need. I know nothing of servers and there workings...

As for the tool. I hope MS have finally got something right (They tend to get so much wrong from serious 'money making programs to CFS3 (which was a disaster until the glitches were 'patched', literally - but this isn't a Flight Sim Forum... )

I design only html sites (with php in places, of course). After all, html is all the SEs can read!! and SEO/User friendly sites must have what the SE can read. Dynamics and "Wonderwomen prancing about" is a novelty, but it's nothing more than a distraction from the purpose of a website (IMO).

Consequently, we need a GOOD, well built, well thought through, decent coding WYSIWYG html editor. There just isn't one, so.... I hope they've managed to include at least THAT, in this thing.

Thanks,
Wiz

Hmm. a gud tool taken out by MS looks like. Frontpage was completely nuisance. this one looks better while it says that it adheres to web standards & gives css-layout etc... i might try it out.. hope results are positive.. :\

I've been keeping my eye on that for some time now. Nice to see a release.. It's nice to see some competition for the Adobe/Macromedia products currently avalible.

Sparkle Sparkle!

I downloaded the 'Trial' version and have been using it on and off for the last week or more.

I must say, for a geek devised and engineered program (which they all basically are) they seem to have done a pretty good job making it friendly for people who are used to FP.

I learn new stuff pretty quickly, but I hate doing it. I can't stand that time from confusion until the penny drops. It frustrates the crap out of me. There is still much that I don't understand or don't know the purpose for in this program, but I reckon I could build a site from scratch with it. I especially like the 'Validation' process "within the prograsm that actually coded the site" - that's refreshing. It's all very well for all those HTML 'Validation' programs out there to 'point the bone' when NONE of them actually build sites themselves.

So, my evaluation is as follows:

Good for newbies to start with. That way, they have the better MS website builder and also a number of features that FP doesn't have. As for current FP users (like myself), if ever correct code becomes a real issue, it's nice to know that we can step into someting reasonably familiar if need be.

Important Questions:

How long does my 'Trial Version' last before I have to pay some ridiculously idiotic MS pricetag for was is basically a 'fix-up of Frontpage (which is included in MS Office free).

Wiz

SiteReference wrote:

A topic that will see no end...

Microsoft has released a new standards based WYSIWIG website creater.  I haven't looked into it with any level of detail, but it may be quite nice.

http://www.microsoft.com/products/expre … fault.mspx

I downloaded it a few weeks ago and played about with it for a few days.  It seems to work and I suspect for building a new website, it will be quick and easy and if the Microsoft blurb is to be beleieved, standards compliant.  As a long time user of Frontpage, actually since before Microsoft bought the company and while Dreamweaver was non-existent, it feels like Frontpage to use.  In other words, anyone familiar with Microsoft software should have no problem creating a workable site.

Now I'll sit back and watch the flame war develop!

Regards,

Graham

Wizard of Oz wrote:

I especially like the 'Validation' process "within the prograsm that actually coded the site" - that's refreshing. It's all very well for all those HTML 'Validation' programs out there to 'point the bone' when NONE of them actually build sites themselves.

That would concern me actually.  It means that it would validate it to the standard that it writes to (Microsoft's) not necessarily to the current W3C standards.  This means to me that while it will be guaranteed to function perfectly on Internet Explorer, it's not guaranteed to display well on Firefox or Opera etc...  Microsoft is infamous for their attempts to rewrite standards for themselves (re: Kerberos)

I checked it out.  It writes code in the ASP.NET 2.0 format. 
This is bad because:

• It's the opposite of standards based code
• It will only work with servers running ASP.NET 2.0  which cost about five(?) times as much for a hosting account
• ASP.NET has long been problem plaqued.  At one time ASP sites wouldn't even work on non-Windows machines even if they used IE.  This latest version of ASP seems ok, but they are already working on a new on and
• When they do come out with a new version of ASP and it gets installed on your server, you'll have to buy new web authoring software and probably have to re-code all your sites.
• It's from Microsoft

In short why would anyone buy this especially when you can get visual web developer for free - still have to pay a bunch extra for hosting though.

As soon as I saw the words -- MicroSTOOPID FrontPage -- y'all knew I couldn't resist, as I have always absolutely hated that program ... but, when I looked at the link, the first words, Expression® Web Designer, stood out -- I thought, "Yeah; I'd like to express my thoughts alright, but since Billy-Bob Gates is retiring this year from MicroSTOOPID, it would fall on deaf ears as usual".

travelagent wrote:

As soon as I saw the words -- MicroSTOOPID FrontPage --

y'all knew I couldn't resist

, as I have always absolutely hated that program ... but, when I looked at the link, the first words, Expression® Web Designer, stood out -- I thought, "Yeah; I'd like to express my thoughts alright, but since Billy-Bob Gates is retiring this year from MicroSTOOPID, it would fall on deaf ears as usual".

LOL Hey my friend, I just knew you would surface at some point, you’re just as predictable as the arcade game where the gophers pop up... and then you hit them with a big mallet.

texxs wrote:

I checked it out.  It writes code in the ASP.NET 2.0 format. 
This is bad because:

• It's the opposite of standards based code
• It will only work with servers running ASP.NET 2.0  which cost about five(?) times as much for a hosting account
• ASP.NET has long been problem plaqued.  At one time ASP sites wouldn't even work on non-Windows machines even if they used IE.  This latest version of ASP seems ok, but they are already working on a new on and
• When they do come out with a new version of ASP and it gets installed on your server, you'll have to buy new web authoring software and probably have to re-code all your sites.
• It's from Microsoft

In short why would anyone buy this especially when you can get visual web developer for free - still have to pay a bunch extra for hosting though.

thats not exactly true - I've been coding in it for a few weeks and my product is not even in any flavor of ASP at all - its in Delphi, its not tied to ASP or IIS at all, and yes it does create standards based markup

it works quite nicely with PHP pages too

and in case you didn't notice - this is free too, well the beta is

Is this TRUE?? It's FREE???

I downloaded the 'TRIAL version' - Does this mean I am going to be able to continually use it and will never get a:

"Sorry, your 30 days are up, if you want to continue using this program please pay us $3,972.60...."
Really..... Is it FREE??

Wiz 

Wizard of Oz wrote:

Is this TRUE?? It's FREE???

I downloaded the 'TRIAL version' - Does this mean I am going to be able to continually use it and will never get a:

"Sorry, your 30 days are up, if you want to continue using this program please pay us $3,972.60...."
Really..... Is it FREE??

Wiz 

Ha ha. really u ought to get a message like that when you're havin a product like that. well, i also wanted to knw that its true that the software is free without any time limitations or not?

well you're right it probably expires

Mutilated1 wrote:

well you're right it probably expires

You're probably right - Otherwise, why would they call it a "Trial" version......Hmmmm.

I haven't seen any notice anywhere on it that indicates a limited usage period. There's usually a "Registration" box that comes up a trial versions load. Anyway, we'll see.

What makes you think it's free??? I mean, I don't recall seeing anything that suggested that. But then I didn't see a price either, which is unusual....

Wiz 

I don't keep up with what Microsoft puts out, so I hadn't heard of this.  I started using FrontPage 98 then 2000 when I started dabbling in Web Design.  It didn't take long to learn that the code Microsoft creates is aweful.  I switched to Dreamweaver in 2000 and never looked back.

I don't think I'll be trying this new product from Microsoft, but it will be interesting to watch the conversation here and see what everyone else has to say about it.  If I hear some interesting stuff, I may check it out, but I highly doubt I'll switch.

Wizard of Oz wrote:

Mutilated1 wrote:

well you're right it probably expires

You're probably right - Otherwise, why would they call it a "Trial" version......Hmmmm.

I haven't seen any notice anywhere on it that indicates a limited usage period. There's usually a "Registration" box that comes up a trial versions load. Anyway, we'll see.

What makes you think it's free??? I mean, I don't recall seeing anything that suggested that. But then I didn't see a price either, which is unusual....

There is a basic misconception here.  Microsoft are saying to the community "here's a group of products we have developed for you to play with and let us know what you like, what you don't like and what you want to see included".  If you bother to read the bumf, they are suggesting that these three programmes may or may not contain all the facilities that exist in the current releases and they specifically warn against using them for anything mission critical.

In other words they are allowing interested parties, who might eventually buy the finished product, the opportunity to have their say in the development.  Whether or not they will listen and change anything is a whole different thread.  But I'm biased, without Microsoft products I wouldn't have the business I have today.

Cheers,

Graham

vivid wrote:

I started using FrontPage 98 then 2000 when I started dabbling in Web Design.  It didn't take long to learn that the code Microsoft creates is aweful.  I switched to Dreamweaver in 2000 and never looked back.

LOL -- that's what many of us "old-timer hand coders" have said since FrontPage hit the streets -- it quite literally throws in 100's of useless lines of code, which ultimately makes your site load slower.

I guess waveshoppe is standing by with his mallet...

Thanks for the 'headsup', amslink. So it seems we have a program, which is free, per se but not guaranteed and not intended for professional use. I see... Thanks.

As for FrontPage, I'm still a user of it. I've been building my own sites for 4 years and have only, in the last few months, ventured into design and building for others (which has proven to be quite rewarding, both in satisfaction and financially. I only do HTML, no Flash or rubbish like that. After explaining the negatives of Flash, most people opt for plain HTML anyway, as most (if not all, so far) have been chasing SE rankings.

I suppose, in the interests of supplying a 'sound' product, I will swap to another, better coding program. Although, for now, it's no biggy because there doesn't seem to be any Search Engine that takes much notice of coding. However, that could change, in which case, websites with too much redundant or just plain improper code may start to be penalised.

The new program seems to be quite good and VERY much based on Frontpage as far as it's usability and layout are concerned. But then, being an FP user, that would appeal to me.

My intention, although I have got to get to it yet, is to build a simple site with it, use it's 'validation' option and see how that compares to another, established 'validator'. I'll let all know what goes, when I get it done.

I must admit, it would be great to have a program that writes so that there are no issues between the different browsers. Something I have to be continually careful of, when using Frontpage.

Wiz