Site Reference Forums

mark · 2006-03-21 19:55:58

How much traffic for that much money? Probably about 200,000 pageviews/day, with a 5-7% CTR, that's about 12,000 clicks per day. Really, that's not too difficult to believe.

markusf · 2006-03-22 01:45:11

Plentyoffish has 14 million pageviews a day. Its extremely huge in Canada.

http://www.prweb.com/releases/2006/3/prweb360802.htm

Skywoolf · 2006-03-22 02:15:49

I have built some of the biggest and most successful web sites in Asia and since I started in 1995 I have proved many times that a site does not have to be pretty or attractive to be successful. Good SEO and marketing combined with constantly updated content that is interesting is the key. Of course if a site looks good that's a bonus but if users have to wait for heavy graphics, useless flash animations, etc. Then even those who love the design will get fed up with waithing for them to load every time they visit. If you can make a professional looking attractive page that is very light and very intuative it will work well.

People visit web sites to get information, software, pictures, movies etc. After a while a regular visitor won't even notice or care what the site itself looks like.

I am a lousy graphic designer but one of my motorcycle sites that I built and maintained for six years entirely on my own and I recently gave away was consistently between 5th and 20th most popular in the Philippines. It was ranked as high as 14,600 on Alexa. That is exeptional for a special interest site.

I no longer even look at Alexa rankings. While I was consistently in the Top 20 Philippine sites the cheat software for windows appeared. Soon after that a hotel and a web development company were ranked higher than my site that had 20,000 forum members and over 5 million page views per month. Obviously the cheat software works.

mark · 2006-03-22 08:38:55

markusf wrote:
Plentyoffish has 14 million pageviews a day. Its extremely huge in Canada.

http://www.prweb.com/releases/2006/3/prweb360802.htm

Well then, that should easily be enough to make $10,000/day.

BTW, welcome markusf!

mark · 2006-03-22 08:41:14

Skywoolf wrote:
Then even those who love the design will get fed up with waithing for them to load every time they visit. If you can make a professional looking attractive page that is very light and very intuative it will work well.

Yes, but IMO this is success in spite of the site's design. There is a case to be made for niche sites that do well because they are unattractive...

andrea · 2006-03-22 15:42:41

I've read through most of these posts - whew - three pages - and it's very interesting.

I'm a web developer / designer and am not going to tout the virtues of clean design (code, prettiness, whatever). The replies from Jamble and Beatles (imho) spoke to some of the key points:

But seriously, I think ugly is the wrong word here. Successful sites have something people want, period

I agree with this simple point.

I live in Canada and cringe everytime the Herbal Essance Shampoo commercial comes on the t.v. You know.. it's a bad rip-off on the famous scene from "when harry met sally". I find it corny and wonder why it sells? But, that's marketing. Go figure who it reaches. What appeals to me may not appeal to the next person.

So - if it's all about marketing, that requires testing.

If you have a so-called 'pretty' site that converts well, why not build an "ugly" one on the same topic and test the conversions. Great way to compare side-by-side what converts best.

No doubt ugly will convert well on some topics - but I somehow don't think it would for my web design business tongue

Excellent discussion! Thank you all - really thought provoking input.

Last edited by andrea (2006-03-22 15:44:49)

homemediaguy · 2006-03-22 16:40:15

I stumbled upon this article while doing some research on trying to build a website for my new business, so I am viewing this as a small business owner, not as the web developers that I assume of most of you. The topic struck me as particularly interesting because a friend of mine has been very successful with, what I consider, a horrible website. (www.pokeroutlet.com) His success comes only from actual sales, not Adsense revenue, so I have to agree with others that mention simplicity being the most important attribute of ugly websites.

Obviously, getting in on the poker trend just as it began to hit (he started in 2002) helped a great deal, but he has survived while many others have tried to move in.

As much as I hate his ugly website, knowing that you can succeed online without spending a ton of money is what motivated me to start my new business. Although, instead of creating an equally ugly site, my thought is; "If he can do it with that, then surely I can do better with a nice looking site".
(pause for "don't call me Shirley" lines)

I will have a much tougher time because I will be selling consumer electronics (because the world needs one more) However, I am trying to go against the "big box" method of throwing every product they sell onto the home page by having a simplistic, fluid interface. So, we will soon see whether the answer really is just ugly or simple.

Shawn
btw, I really could use some pointers for my site design if anyone would be willing to answer some noob questions. Thanks

mark · 2006-03-22 17:14:16

homemediaguy,

Thanks for the response. For those pointers, make your way over to the Site Revew Please forum and request a review - I'm sure people will be happy to give you a review.

mscsrrr · 2006-03-22 17:44:41

Hello:
A website may be visually ugly but has a product or service in high demand, so it may become a cash cow. So, in that case, its ugliness will become a second issue. So, while it it may be visually ugly, but financially it is beautiful. There are hundreds of thousands of such websites on the internet.

The Buddy

Wizard of Oz · 2006-03-22 20:23:10

I think Mark has stumbled across a way to get a pile of new members thru one topic. I don't know how or what it is. Perhaps the subject of the article, which doesn't seem all that controversial or interesting, at first glance, has turned out to be just that.

Truely, I've never seen so many new members join up for a say in one single topic. It's onward and upwars from here, mate... big_smile

[Homemediaguy wrote:

I stumbled upon this article while doing some research on trying to build a website for my new business, so I am viewing this as a small business owner, not as the web developers that I assume of most of you. The topic struck me as particularly interesting because a friend of mine has been very successful with, what I consider, a horrible website. (www.pokeroutlet.com) His success comes only from actual sales, not Adsense revenue, so I have to agree with others that mention simplicity being the most important attribute of ugly websites.

I think you'll find, mate, that most of us are online business people. Affiliates, article sites, travel agencies. In fact, all sorts of things. There are a few 'Website Designers and/or Developers' as such, that I know of - but certainly not too many.

One thing I think is a common thread for most here and that is we all build and maintain our own sites - be it well, middling or terrible... blinka But we do that only for ourselves, mainly. At least I think that's a reasonable statement about our population.

Comments maybe.... What do you all do, people ????:/

Lifestory · 2006-03-22 23:07:05

one thing i think we should all keep in mind "not ALL ugly sites make good business". thats what some peeps here are generalizing the article.

maybe we shouldnt even call ebay and craiglist as ugly. i jus feel that this article is just telling me this:
Know your product and your target audience, design accordingly...

and i guess its pretty true..
The web is pretty much simulating the real-world. A well-designed site is like a posh boutique, where one would expect great service and products at a high cost but u just loves the way that dress looks with all that lighting! While an "ugly" site is pretty much a run-down shop aint presenting its products well, but hey, u get what u wanted at a lower cost!

design in definition is a plan to create something, whether it looks good or bad is incoherent. what matters is that ur plan works. that's like saying "hmmmz.. maybe eBay is a well-designed site" i know, but isnt that the case this article is pointing at?

I might be rambling nonsense so my point is this:
good marketing does not depend on visual designs, just focus on the design (the plan), forget about the visual.

Dee · 2006-03-23 13:54:47

Hi Everyone,

I have been searching for two days now to find a decent and affordable web designer for my site as well as a handful of my clients sites and I can't tell you how happy I was to read that article. I have always considered myself an average desinger but lately I have been wanting to increase the wow factor of the sites my company represents. So, with that being said do you guys think that simple/basic design is a good representation of a technology company or do you think a technology company should set the bar for design? I really appreciate your input.

Also, if you think that I need a site that will wow my clients do any of you know of any affordable designer (design only) that can take a look at my site? As of now it is still under construction. The only aspect of it that I would like to keep for sure is my sitepal. Of course size and location of him can be changed. Please take a minute to browse my site and give me your feedback. Also, if you know of a designer I have four clients that need sites designed sooner than later and would love to form a partnership with someone that is willing to take on the design aspect of my business in exchange for a better rate.

Thanks,

Dee
http://www.phillipsbusinesssolutions.com/

beatledave · 2006-03-23 15:33:19

Dee,
I would wow my customers with examples of websites I've made for others. I think in the long run you'll do better in the search engines and with sales if you simply tell people what you're about and what you can do on a fairly simple page.

Last edited by beatledave (2006-03-23 20:00:48)

waveshoppe · 2006-03-23 16:36:50

This is all so interesting… in defense of validated code, did we ever discuss the PR for W3C? I has a PR of 10, something we all dream about LOL tongue

Wizard of Oz · 2006-03-23 23:37:22

What's this W3C stuff?? I noticed it in the 'Doc Type' tag I put in my site (because it was lacking one). I didn't know what to put there, so I just picked one from my other sites and popped that in...

What's this all about,W3C and 'Doc Type'. I've looked up the source code for about 20 sites chosen at random from Yahoo's rankings (from different pages like, 1 23, 44, 190 etc and they ALL have exactly the same 'Doc Type' tag???

I think it's just a nonsense to confuse semi-knowledgeable people like me... big_smile Trying to rob us of sleep or something more sinister... cool

mark · 2006-03-24 00:03:17

The W3C is the world wide web consortium - these are the gusy who created the standards for the web. So when you see that doctype, what the page author is doing is saying "We are using this version of HTML (or XHTML) - browsers and other programs (possibly SE spiders) interpret this page using these sets of rules"

You can learn a lot about HTML, CSS, accessability and usability at W3.org

laurie_m · 2006-03-24 03:06:01

Now Dee.

I've copied and pasted the first four of the six things your site claims to provide for clients.

# Make better business decisions
# Design and build your website
# Optimize you website for search engines
# Master internet marketing

It seems to me that asking the questions in your post, indicates an inability to deliver on any of these and possibly the other two.

I think your clients will soon desert you.

Pretty tough uhh!

Regards,
Laurie.

Wizard of Oz · 2006-03-24 07:09:26

SiteReference wrote:
The W3C is the world wide web consortium - these are the gusy who created the standards for the web. So when you see that doctype, what the page author is doing is saying "We are using this version of HTML (or XHTML) - browsers and other programs (possibly SE spiders) interpret this page using these sets of rules"

You can learn a lot about HTML, CSS, accessability and usability at W3.org

Thanks mark. So I am correct in placing this <Doc Type> on my websites built with FP...

Steve glad

P.S. I notice above that URL BBcode doesn't work inside quote tags... Never noticed this before - or is it a glitch??

Hang on.... Just had a thought. I have mentioned in other topic that the different browsers (especially Netscape) render websites differently. Is this possibly because some (or at least netscape) are not using this W3C 'standard'?? glad

mark · 2006-03-24 08:11:14

The reason browsers render things a bit different is because not all browsers interpret the W3C correctly, or in the case of MS, they choose to not interpret things correctly. So yes, that is the problem.

URL tags should work inside of quotes.

andrea · 2006-03-24 15:51:42

Hi All -

What's this W3C stuff?? I noticed it in the 'Doc Type' tag I put in my site (because it was lacking one). I didn't know what to put there, so I just picked one from my other sites and popped that in...

Doc type and declaration tags are similar to a "handshake". It's like an introduction between your site and the SE's. By declaring the format you were attempting to use (i.e. html 4.01 transitional is an example) the search engines can then know how to read / interpret your code.

Remember, these are just algorithms running through fast and if you help to explain how they should read your page (declaration tag goes on line 1) you probably have a better chance of having it interpreted properly. You can also add meta tags to say - this is English US (or any other language).

Dee - let me know if I can help with your design questions - you can pm me or contact me via my website (see signature).

Andrea

Last edited by andrea (2006-03-24 15:53:16)

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Site Reference Forums

#41 2006-03-21 19:55:58

Re: The Surprising Truth About Ugly Websites

#42 2006-03-22 01:45:11

Re: The Surprising Truth About Ugly Websites

#43 2006-03-22 02:15:49

Re: The Surprising Truth About Ugly Websites

#44 2006-03-22 08:38:55

Re: The Surprising Truth About Ugly Websites

markusf wrote:

#45 2006-03-22 08:41:14

Re: The Surprising Truth About Ugly Websites

Skywoolf wrote:

#46 2006-03-22 15:42:41

Re: The Surprising Truth About Ugly Websites

#47 2006-03-22 16:40:15

Re: The Surprising Truth About Ugly Websites

#48 2006-03-22 17:14:16

Re: The Surprising Truth About Ugly Websites

#49 2006-03-22 17:44:41

Re: The Surprising Truth About Ugly Websites

#50 2006-03-22 20:23:10

Re: The Surprising Truth About Ugly Websites

#51 2006-03-22 23:07:05

Re: The Surprising Truth About Ugly Websites

#52 2006-03-23 13:54:47

Re: The Surprising Truth About Ugly Websites

#53 2006-03-23 15:33:19

Re: The Surprising Truth About Ugly Websites

#54 2006-03-23 16:36:50

Re: The Surprising Truth About Ugly Websites

#55 2006-03-23 23:37:22

Re: The Surprising Truth About Ugly Websites

#56 2006-03-24 00:03:17

Re: The Surprising Truth About Ugly Websites

#57 2006-03-24 03:06:01

Re: The Surprising Truth About Ugly Websites

#58 2006-03-24 07:09:26

Re: The Surprising Truth About Ugly Websites

SiteReference wrote:

#59 2006-03-24 08:11:14

Re: The Surprising Truth About Ugly Websites

#60 2006-03-24 15:51:42

Re: The Surprising Truth About Ugly Websites

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